http://weewar.com/forum/posts/list/1.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
[b]Please bookmark this webpage so that weewarriors can communicate about (buying) Weewar if the site crashes long-term or is shut down: [url]http://saveweewar.wordpress.com/[/url][/b]

UPDATED on AUG 25:

As most will have noticed, Weewar is technically struggling these days. Spadequack agrees that it might be a good time for the community to offer to buy and develop the game. He has asked Alex at Electronic Arts if they would be interested in selling and for how much (Alex co-created Weewar as an indy game and went to work for EA two years ago when they bought it). Alex is working on it and asks us to be patient. Spade suggests that we develop a proposal for him that is our ideal scenario. I am starting a new thread about that:

There is a technically qualified programmer interested in helping maintain and develop the game if the community can get it - we have an update from Rosenstern_and_Guildencrantz on that. Here is part of his update, seen in full on page 2:

"My good friend is a full-time programmer who has played weewar a solid amount and understands the problems and issues involved. He expressed to me, as well as spade, that this IS in fact a project he is capable of and might be willing to pursue. That being said, he is a full-time programmer, which means he has a full-time job. So this would obviously be a part-time project for him and that could mean the development process goes slower and takes longer than people might be hoping for."


Note that a group of us talked about buying Weewar in the early spring but Mark at EA said they were not interested in selling outright. Due to Weewar's deterioration in membership (despite free pro) and buggyness, they might be now. We had a separate webspace set up to talk about all this in the spring, but it seems appropriate to throw the discussion out to the whole community now and see what happens (we can reactivate that webpage if need be).

[b]PLEASE KEEP YOUR COMMENTS IN THIS THREAD AS BRIEF AND SUCCINCT AS POSSIBLE SO THAT OTHERS WILL NOT BE INSPIRED TO BREAK YOUR FINGERS.[/b]

There are three BIG QUESTIONS (not to mention a million little ones):

[b]1) How much[/b] would EA ask for it and can we raise the money? Some of you may have $ to put in. You can post here or send emails (mine is on my profile page). Might end up being an investment in the long-run, but think of it more as saving a game you love.

[b]2) What would the business model look like?[/b] (thanks Garry) How much would membership cost, how many members needed to cover expenses, what would operating expenses be (server space, bandwith, advertising, etc), would we set it up as an open source nonprofit?

[b]3) Who would do what?[/b] We'd need various kinds of expertise, including a co-ordinator or two with the capacity to bring together technical, marketing, finances, book keeping/accounting, legal, feature planning, etc. This person or persons would need to be dedicated and couldn't expect to make money (or much money anyway) in the short-term. If the game grows, who knows...

Alternatively, we could all run it together as an open source community game. But we would still need dedicated members and a decision-making structure.

Perhaps the best way to address the question of who would do what is to ask it:

[b]Who is seriously interested in being involved, what role would you like to play, how much time per week could you commit to being involved?[/b] I will keep an updated list here in this first post,

[b]Co-ordination and Business Planning[/b]
1) [url=http://weewar.com/user/Rosenstern_and_Guildencrantz//url]Rosenstern_and_Guildencrantz[/url] - "I would be very eager to lead/participate in a group of people that would assess and prioritize these improvements." 10hrs/wk - I think we have our co-ordinator
2) [url=http://weewar.com/user/McMonster//url]McMonster[/url] - catalyst for getting the ball (i.e. purchase of weewar) rolling - i lack the time and expertise to be a co-ordinator in the long-term. 2-3hrs/week, more in the initial phase
3) [url=http://weewar.com/user/Brianiac//url]Brianiac[/url] - organization/PR/marketing etc. "regarding the community ownership angle, I work with a community-run radio station here locally. Its chaotic at times, but seems to flow alright once people understand their roles."
4) [url=http://weewar.com/user/kersplat//url]kersplat[/url] - "I'm more than willing to help coordinate. I'm an IT/Development Project Manager by trade and have years of experience managing this type of effort."

[b]Game Development[/b]
5) [url=http://weewar.com/user/Casaubon//url]Casaubon[/url] aka Weesletown - game development
6) [url=http://weewar.com/user/Garry//url]Garry[/url] - business planning, game development
7) [url=http://weewar.com/user/Plasmablaster//url]Plasmablaster[/url] - game development
8 ) [url=http://weewar.com/user/thuldai//url]thuldai[/url] - "I'd see myself as a paying pro-member as well as tutorial and/or campaign developer. Wouldn't mind helping in forums, with newbies and such. 3-4 hours per week?"
9) [url=http://weewar.com/user/janroman//url]janroman[/url] - "I'm interested in the project. I'm no programmer, but I'm very creative person and I used to do graphics design (and I think I'm not bad at it) so I'd like to participate as a game designer (game mechanics, artwork, pixelart, webdesign). I'm a student so I should be able to invest about 3-5 hours/week (but it depends on circumstances)."

[b]Programmers[/b]
10) [url=http://weewar.com/user/Spadequack//url]Spadequack[/url] - technical adviser, knows the code
11) R&G's friend = lead programmer
12) [url=http://weewar.com/user/Daithi//url]Daithi[/url] - Mobile Developer/programmer - "I'm willing to talk about it if this gets serious. you already know my rap sheet. I've always been willing to help in the right circumstances and make a positive contribution, as I try to do now but I'm not a fool, I see many problems."
13) [url=http://weewar.com/user/Rahl//url]Rahl[/url] aka Mercury - Quality Assurance, plus "I have some programming (C++, java) background, as well, but not enough to head a mobile project (which I think is a FANTASTIC idea)."
14) [url=http://weewar.com/user/Yourtime//url]Yourtime[/url] - programming, iPhone ap, "I'm currently a full time java developer and did already on my school exam an iPhone application with network and xml. I want help to keep weewar alive."
15) [url=http://weewar.com/user/trafaliti//url]trafaliti[/url] - "i am a computer science student and did and know my ways in webdevelopment. if you are able to get the game out of ea's hands im willing to help were ever i can " Please note that trafiliti has written a couple of the weewar greasemonkey scripts, including stats for google crome and the resize script.

[b]Marketing[/b]
16) [url=http://weewar.com/user/Xana//url]Xana[/url] - PR/marketing/forum moderating
+ Brianiac, and Cas and Daithi have ideas

[b]Accounting & Legal[/b]
17) [url=http://weewar.com/user/thousandjulys//url]thousandjulys[/url] - "I am a CPA (Certified Public Accountant, in the USA), so if you need contracts, buy-outs or numbers crunched, I can help there."
1 [url=http://weewar.com/user/dbthaw//url]dbthaw[/url] I'm a licensed attorney (in the U.S.); I don't practice in the gaming space (that's a relatively small community of attorneys) but would be willing to help to the extent I can.

....

[b]PLEASE KEEP YOUR COMMENTS[/b] IN THIS THREAD AS BRIEF AND SUCCINCT AS POSSIBLE SO THAT OTHERS WILL NOT BE INSPIRED TO BREAK YOUR FINGERS. And try to avoid poo pooy naysaying in this thread - thoughtful critiques welcome however!

[b]Please VOTE [/b]in the poll at the top of this thread - note that I just edited option 1, so it's not that no one is willing to "pay to play" ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23163.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23163.page GMT
Purchase price is important, but what are the continuing costs? Server space, bandwith, etc...?

What is the time requirement for just basic maintenance of the site? IE: who gets the call when the game goes down for some reason; How often does anything need to be done and how much time does someone need to commit to this?

Given the current member base, what is the expected cash flow?

What kind of expenses would we incur to market the game and build the base? Is there enough market to make that a viable option?

Bottom line I am interested but not just to hold legacy ownership in a game that is dying. The investment should be made in order to develop the game and at least break even financially.

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23165.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23165.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23166.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23166.page GMT I personally don't think its a good idea. i think it's better if only 2 poeple buy the site.

firstly because you would need a team with [b]good skills[/b] and clear desision structure. (asking poeple here will not get you the skills you need)
secondly because its gona cost to much money and the [b]risks[/b] are to high.
and last but not least this game is [b]not addictive enough[/b]. (i would not pay to play this game because it takes to long to finish a game)

However if the price (purchase price + 5 year running price) is low enough you should give it a chance but do not expect financial returns (or even your iinitial investment back)]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23167.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23167.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23169.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23169.page GMT
I was once VERY interested in trying to do this but I have to admit, I'm not interested anymore. I love this game, it's so much fun, but I can't imagine EA wants to do anything. This game is withering away and I'm not sure it can be saved. And that is very depressing.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23170.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23170.page GMT
b) Spade indicated that the conditions may have changed and that EA might indeed be interested now - he is going to update us.

c) R&G has a programmer friend with the technical expertise to lead the programming - s/he is interested - I have asked R&G to update us.

d) Yes, the classic business model is a small private company with a couple of leader/owners. Doesn't mean that's the only way things get done in the world. Think, um, Wikipedia? Every small and large Co-operative I know, every democratic nation on earth, etc.

Why can't businesses/organizations be democratic/community-driven as well? Doesn't mean you don't need leaders and a clear decision-making structure. You need a balance.

Time will tell...]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23171.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23171.page GMT
I am willing to pay assuming value for money. $2/month was a steal of a deal back when it was growing and you could tell the folks in charge really cared. There were other games around charging way more for a lot less. But lately it seems like I'd get more value putting my $2 into a tripple-latte.
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23172.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23172.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23173.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23173.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23174.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23174.page GMT
Purchase price is important, but what are the continuing costs? Server space, bandwith, etc...?

What is the time requirement for just basic maintenance of the site? IE: who gets the call when the game goes down for some reason; How often does anything need to be done and how much time does someone need to commit to this?

Given the current member base, what is the expected cash flow?

What kind of expenses would we incur to market the game and build the base? Is there enough market to make that a viable option?

Bottom line I am interested but not just to hold legacy ownership in a game that is dying. The investment should be made in order to develop the game and at least break even financially.

[/quote]

I agree with Gary. Is the idea to create a legacy membership for weewar lovers or to start a weewar company owned by weewar players? While I asume it's the company aspect, Gary raises some interesting questions.

While the game is great. There are reasons for declining membership in addition to what has already been mentioned, and correcting those cost time and money. I think it's a worthwhile concept to grow and devote some time into. Is the monthly subscription really the best model? The competition includes iphone games that cost $.99 to play forever with better graphics and dependability.

I think we all have ideas of ways to improve the game/site/model but everything costs money. Before we can even look to that, what does it cost EA now? If it's getting to the point that it's losing money then it shouldn't be worth much to them.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23175.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23175.page GMT
that's another option LM - ask em.

[quote=Daithi]It's true there were some interested serious parties, I was trying to be brief. We spoke to Ea they weren't willing to consider it. A few people were only willing to commit 2 hours a week to it and when the leader disappeared despite attempts by others to keep it going it failed. I'm not really interested in getting into another debate about it, this is all recorded on wwcf site.[/quote]

i hear you Big D, but conditions may have changed - we'll see.

[quote]I think we all have ideas of ways to improve the game/site/model but everything costs money. Before we can even look to that, what does it cost EA now? If it's getting to the point that it's losing money then it shouldn't be worth much to them.[/quote]

All true, except costing money perhaps - depends on the structure we set up. If members buy and own it and we do our part, and the membership fees can cover the basic expenses, maybe it will break even. As it grows it can pay back the investors.

Obviously it is losing money now for EA - they aren't charging anything
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23176.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23176.page GMT
Fixed cost of purchasing + Operating Costs + time and $ of building up < or > weewar potential

Who's willing to invest: cash and full time efforts?
The business development talk is the fun part, but there has to be a small group of leaders/owners if anything is to get done who are devoted to the risk of helping weewar take off.
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23177.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23177.page GMT
I am glad others still care enough but I no longer can bring myself to care if the game lives or dies. I log in everyday to complete turns in a game effectively ruined by EA so that the other players don't get screwed by the games I foolishly entered.

Because of the way EA has run this game and others, I no longer have any interest in any EA game.

Thanks but no thanks.

good luck to all of you, many of you I enjoyed my time with.

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23178.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23178.page GMT
So:

I would definitely throw money in if this would entitle me in being part of the decision structure and/or ownership of the game. I'd like to know some financial facts about it, before I do it like how many active players there are and what the income rate was before pro accounts got the silent indefinite extension. If that isn't possible I would be happy to just pay regularly for my pro account.

I'd also like to help -I've sent extensive and detailed e-mail to whomever was that asked for help some time ago. As a quick summary, my skills lie at game development, I have developed a successful ruleset for a board (table) wargame, have conducted research & playtesting for several others and have a grasp for probabilities -although that doesn't help much when playing the game I'd be very pleased to work along with Casaubon and anyone else involved with game development.

Apart from the units and the game mechanics themselves I have some ideas for weewar in general as well: Scenario based encounters between players, story-driven usage of an evolved AI, and some other, more radical which I will keep to myself for the time being.


Time I'd be willing to invest weekly would be around 4-6 hours as brainstorming and communicating, apart from the time invested in playtesting which would be about 1 hour daily.

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23179.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23179.page GMT
It use to cost $20-24 per year, depending on how long you signed up for.

You can see how many weewarriors there currently are by scrolling down the ranking page here: http://weewartimes.com/rankings/

There use to be a little over 1000, not sure how many were paying at the high point - 500? More?

I've put you on the list above - let me know if I should correct the description.

....

[b]Please read the first comment in the thread for background info.[/b]

[b]PLEASE KEEP YOUR COMMENTS IN THIS THREAD AS BRIEF AND SUCCINCT AS POSSIBLE SO THAT OTHERS WILL NOT BE INSPIRED TO BREAK YOUR FINGERS.[/b] And try to avoid poo pooy naysaying in this thread - thoughtful critiques welcome however!

[b]Please VOTE in the poll at the top of this thread[/b] - note that I just edited option 1, so it's not that no one is willing to "pay to play"


]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23180.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23180.page GMT This is no doubt true. The previous endeavor was more secretive and at least two of committed parties from the previous attempt are now longer interested.

[quote]Because of the way EA has run this game and others, I no longer have any interest in any EA game.[/quote]

I'm with Vagus, here here. As the second person to vote no let it die, I've tried to operate that policy myself for several years. When I bought my years subscription there was no EA logo, no sign it was an EA game, Now my subscription has finished.

In a year about all EA has done for Weewar is add their logo.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23181.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23181.page GMT Why should EA do this?
Main reason: they could learn from it. maybe a collaboration of big company + community initiative could prove to be a unusual but a viable business model. the server / traffic costs must be peanuts for them. Imagine Weewar as a community driven EA title in a nonflash version in html5 on ipad iphone android windows mac etc. with a constantly growing user base. they could boast with this.

I think weewar attracted so many interesting people in the past contributing hundreds of work hours without being asked to do so, what if they were asked to contribute officially? wouldn´t this have worked out? I do think so.
regarding the skill issue: weewar was cloned several times by 1 or 2 man startups. I think they offer solid products (but lacking the special something/elegance weewar has) but are not doing very well financially. what if these guys or guys with similar skills wanted to became official developers in a weewar community dev team?
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23182.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23182.page GMT
A key aspect we are lacking is programming ability. We have one interested member who has offered to take on coding and maintaining the core of Weewar (but not as a day job), assuming we have a solid organizational structure and he is at least somewhat compensated for his time and efforts.

A few have mentioned the idea of spreading Weewar onto mobile devices. This is possible, and potentially lucrative, but not without someone to do it.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23183.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23183.page GMT
I'm a software engineer and have experience in varying ranges on lots of platforms PHP/HTML/.NET Compact Framework/SQL/C++ and I can get by or adapt to new environments quickly. It's more than likely there's a way I can be of some help, I already have a lot of Weewar specific code that can be ported and/or integrated after the initial problems have been fixed.

I've always been willing to help in the right circumstances and make a positive contribution, as I try to do now but I'm not a fool, I see many problems.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23184.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23184.page GMT
I have zero programming skills, but if we get a serious enough effort going I'm willing to contribute time and about $6.50 (I'm not rich) to the cause. I am pretty good with organization/PR/marketing etc.

Also, regarding the community ownership angle, I work with a community-run radio station here locally. Its chaotic at times, but seems to flow alright once people understand their roles.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23185.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23185.page GMT ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23186.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23186.page GMT I'm happy to help however I can-- my professional background is QA and could offer support in those kinds of developments, should we succeed in purchasing. I have some programming (C++, java) background, as well, but not enough to head a mobile project (which I think is a FANTASTIC idea).

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23187.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23187.page GMT
It use to cost $20-24 per year, depending on how long you signed up for.

You can see how many weewarriors there currently are by scrolling down the ranking page here: http://weewartimes.com/rankings/
[/quote]

Thanks for the info. I voted "yes and I'll help" because I can do that without any conditions whereas giving more money than the subscription would happen under certain conditions as I stated in my previous post.

I saw you put me in the list as "game development - help with overall co-ordination?" If you mean overall co-ordination of the game units, rules and content development then that would be a yes, at least until I prove to be insufficient in co-ordinating anything. Make no mistake - I'm pretty confident in my ability to help develop the units and rules. ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23188.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23188.page GMT
A key aspect we are lacking is programming ability. We have one interested member who has offered to take on coding and maintaining the core of Weewar (but not as a day job), assuming we have a solid organizational structure and he is at least somewhat compensated for his time and efforts.

A few have mentioned the idea of spreading Weewar onto mobile devices. This is possible, and potentially lucrative, but not without someone to do it.[/quote]

@SQ - Talk to EV/EB. he used to be a mobile developer.

@rest of topic - good luck.

I think you'd find it easier to start from scratch as balduran did and elitecommand did. Also would give you the flexibility to add in those things that have been requested for a long long time now, but the base code explicitly will not allow (replay, etc.)

If only elitecommand/balduran and daithi could get together we'd already have the product we want without the detrimental effects of EA's business practices.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23189.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23189.page GMT
1) I think this is a great idea and should most definitely be pursued, especially after reading the responses and seeing a number of people willing to commit time on this. This is a flavorful community and I sense a lot of passion/drive from people commenting. Already, that is more than EA can offer weewar. WEE-WARRIORS UNITE!

2) My good friend is a full-time programmer who has played weewar a solid amount and understands the problems and issues involved. He expressed to me, as well as spade, that this IS in fact a project he is capable of and might be willing to pursue. That being said, he is a full-time programmer, which means he has a full-time job. So this would obviously be a part-time project for him and that could mean the development process goes slower and takes longer than people might be hoping for. The extent of this task will require further analysis by a group of committed individuals. My friend would also expect some form of compensation (most likely monetary) but that can be worked out later.

3) The MOST IMPORTANT issue here is determining if we can even get the game rights from EA. If we can't then all this talk is in vain. McMonster or Spade: would one of you be willing to spearhead the negotiations with EA. I am certainly willing to help if we can bring them to the table to talk about a change in ownership.

4) I will definitely help with this. I also have a full-time job now but would be willing to commit an hour on each weekday and perhaps 5 on the weekends for around 10hrs/week. I would love to work on site design and improvement options. For this to be a financial success we need to aggressively boost the customer base before we can start charging people again. Without drastic improvement, charging anything would cause an immediate flop. These improvements need to be discussed and their difficulty needs to be evaluated in terms of time and skill involved. I would be very eager to lead/participate in a group of people that would assess and prioritize these improvements.

5) Once again, talks with EA are the #1 issue. They [b]MUST[/b] be willing to negotiate, so that is where all of this will begin. Rallying support and money is useless if they are unwilling to part with weewar.


This thread has made me very excited and hopeful for the future of weewar! Let's keep our fingers crossed and maybe EA just hands it to us on a silver platter.

- R&G


*Edit

#1) My friend is capable of mobile development

#2) After reading RD's response, perhaps we don't need EA to grant us ownership rights if we are going to go the route of 100% redevelopment. But if that is the case there will be a huge increase in man hours required and I think we may have to gather some form of funding.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23190.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23190.page GMT #2) After reading RD's response, perhaps we don't need EA to grant us ownership rights if we are going to go the route of 100% redevelopment. But if that is the case there will be a huge increase in man hours required and I think we may have to gather some form of funding.[/quote]

What's more likely AND cheaper - buying from EA or buying from Balduran or Elitecommand?]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23191.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23191.page GMT
1) Short-term for the negotiation and brainstorming phase
2) Medium-term for the initial development and take over phase
3) Long-term for the operational phase.

Personally, I would be in favour of as much wee-community participation as possible, without sacrificing too much in terms of efficiency. We'll need to agree on a vision and timeline for Weewar's development and some basic principles and values. The structures will flow from that. Initially, I would suggest a lot of free wheeling brainstorming/discussion and debate with a small team assigned the task of drafting a vision and values statement out of that process.

Part of me thinks a separate e-space would be best for that process (i.e. Darkbee's site), but most of me thinks we should just hype up the Weewar forums and do it here!

Anyway, getting ahead of ourselves, am I. Let's see what Mark from EA says in response to Spade.

Note, that if he says no, we might be able to apply some pressure in the yes direction...

[quote=RockyDog][quote=Rosenstern_and_Guildencrantz]
#2) After reading RD's response, perhaps we don't need EA to grant us ownership rights if we are going to go the route of 100% redevelopment. But if that is the case there will be a huge increase in man hours required and I think we may have to gather some form of funding.[/quote]

What's more likely AND cheaper - buying from EA or buying from Balduran or Elitecommand?[/quote]

Good question - it would be helpful to have those numbers. But perhaps the deeper question is whether we can really replicate the wee-experience and wee-community with a copy-cat game? I bet not. Warnet and Elite Command just aren't as appealing. Weewar may have flaws and need devo, but it's the game I'm interested in.

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23192.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23192.page GMT
I read thr article and think it's great *thumbs up* and want help too, as long (well not that long) member and big fan. I already asked nearly a year ago, if there are interests in an native iPhone application for weewar, I'm interested to do that and would be an honor. I'm currently a full time java developer and did already on my school exam an iPhone application with network and xml. I want help to keep weewar alive.

sincerely your,
Yourtime

PS: I know I wasn't much at the chat any longer, but I hope you understand it.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23193.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23193.page GMT
Good question - it would be helpful to have those numbers. But perhaps the deeper question is whether we can really replicate the wee-experience and wee-community with a copy-cat game? I bet not. Warnet and Elite Command just aren't as appealing. Weewar may have flaws and need devo, but it's the game I'm interested in.

[/quote]

When you buy a house you have to look past the paint, wallpaper and fixtures to what it could become. Warnet and elitecommand have 90% of the structure you want and need. They also have the flexibility for some of hte additions you want to add. Changing the graphics would be trivial compared to writing your own game. And if you can buy them at a fraction of the cost you wouldn't need to have such a large committee. Additionally those sites come with built in users and community. not to mention you would certainly get a significant number of these players to migrate. Lastly - if those two sites can easily replicate the mechanics of WW then why is THIS particular game seen as so hard to replicate? it's been done at least twice - and done well (just not identical).

Plan your next step with open minds, not a heavy set of WEEWAR blinders.

Purchasing weewar you will inherit some of the baggage that it has built into the code. For example you wont get turn replay without extensively changing code which is very dangerous for a project of this size.

The only thing WW has that you cant replicate is the domain name.

I'll do my best to stop posting. I wish you all the best. Back to retirement.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23194.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23194.page GMT When you buy a house you have to look past the paint, wallpaper and fixtures to what it could become. Warnet and elitecommand have 90% of the structure you want and need. They also have the flexibility for some of hte additions you want to add. Changing the graphics would be trivial...

The only thing WW has that you cant replicate is the domain name.
[/quote]

I am no expert in these matters. If what RD says is true then I for one am open to this possibility.

I agree with Spade below that Weewar has a superior coherence and simplicity that is a huge part of its appeal - Warnet and Elite Command just don't have it.

I guess the problem is that we can't in fact replicate Weewar's graphics and interface too closely without infringing on copyright? Could we just buy the name and right to replicate the interface but not actually buy any of the code or graphics from EA?

I think you should speak your mind RD - you are a wee-vet who has shown dedication to the community and you're offering constructive comments here.

....

Dear Weewarriors,

[b]Please read[/b] the first post in the thread for background info and the rest to get caught up on discussion to date.

[b]PLEASE KEEP YOUR COMMENTS AS BRIEF AND SUCCINCT AS POSSIBLE[/b] SO THAT OTHERS WILL NOT BE INSPIRED TO BREAK YOUR FINGERS. And try to avoid poo pooy naysaying in this thread - thoughtful critiques welcome however!

[b]Please VOTE[/b] in the poll at the top of the thread.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23195.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23195.page GMT
Purchasing weewar you will inherit some of the baggage that it has built into the code. For example you wont get turn replay without extensively changing code which is very dangerous for a project of this size.

The only thing WW has that you cant replicate is the domain name.[/quote]

I agree with RD here except for the last line. WW has a certain design feel that I think is lacking from Warnet and elitecommand. It's not just the unit and terrain graphics; it's the feel of the website. Maybe I'm just not used to the websites of those other games, but I think there's a certain cleanliness and coherence that is here (kudos to Alex) but not there, and that appeals to me. Not a major dealbreaker, but a factor nevertheless.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23196.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23196.page GMT If there was the right group to hand this over to and the community was around the size it was earlier this year, then I would value that at about $200 and subsequently pay a subscription fee of around $5/mo. As I write this, I understand this is a small amount. But it's honest. I don't need/want an ownership percentage.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23197.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23197.page GMT Good question - it would be helpful to have those numbers. But perhaps the deeper question is whether we can really replicate the wee-experience and wee-community with a copy-cat game? I bet not. Warnet and Elite Command just aren't as appealing. Weewar may have flaws and need devo, but it's the game I'm interested in.

[/quote]
hm, if we make a remake and make it all the same, name it "beewars".., then I think it could give the same experience, cause the most important thing in a mmo is the community and not only the system itself

edit: *cough* we could use something old like: theme pakets (I think thats the name).. which allows the player to use his own theme for the game. it would decrease the traffic costs and we could have the chance to use the weewar theme *evil idea* =P ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23198.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23198.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23199.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23199.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23202.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23202.page GMT
- purchase cost
- maintenance
- upgrades]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23203.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23203.page GMT
- purchase cost
- maintenance
- upgrades[/quote]

Ya, let's toss some basic numbers around. Purchase price is a total mystery to me. No idea what such a thing might be worth. Anyone else?

Maintenance and upgrades will have to fit with cashflow, i.e. income from members. We are talking about a community-driven game, so, hopefully, most work will be done by volunteers. But no doubt we need at least a lead programmer or two who will be paid to stay on top of things.

Folks use to pay $24 per year to play. Let's start with $25 and see where that takes us.

100 members = $2,500
1,000 members = $25,000

Somewhere around 800 paying members should be our year one goal I guess. $20,000 would be an ample amount to pay a couple of part-time techies + server and bandwidth costs, no?

Based on the poll at the top of this thread, after two days (with Weewar down much of that time), it looks like we have about 40 Weewarriors already indicating a willingness to pay - that's:

19 specifying just that
+ 13 saying they'll help run it
+ 13 saying maybe if the conditions are right (can't count on all them to pay)
= 40.

Seems to me 100 paying members will be easy to start. I'd guess we can grow it to 800 in year one with consistent maintenance, development, communications and a little bit of advertising.

Another goal ought to be to set aside X amount/ X % of income to pay out those of us who have the means to help buy Weewar up front. Then the game will truly belong to the whole community.

...

[b]Please bookmark this webpage so that weewarriors can communicate about (buying) Weewar if the site crashes long-term or is shut down: http://saveweewar.wordpress.com/ [/b]]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23204.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23204.page GMT 1. Will the 10 people get a 'share' that they can sell onwards at any time?
2. Will a set amount of the annual income be paid as a dividend to these 10 people?
I am sure there are many more questions...

My point being, how will you manage the ownership of weewar?
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23205.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23205.page GMT 1. Will the 10 people get a 'share' that they can sell onwards at any time?
2. Will a set amount of the annual income be paid as a dividend to these 10 people?
I am sure there are many more questions...

My point being, how will you manage the ownership of weewar?
[/quote]

We are talking real money here and valuable intellectual property so we have to be talking a real business entity. Going corporate with shares may be a bit much, but a limited partnership might be a good model.

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23206.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23206.page GMT
800 paying members is a stretch. I'd temper it down a bit and shoot for 300 or 400. The old business model charged more per unit time for less time ($24 for 1 year ($2/month), but we also offered $9 for 3 months ($3/month) and $4 for 1 month. Also keep in mind that most people who buy the smaller plans don't stick around and renew, but some do, and also, we seem to have a pretty constant influx of new players and payers. So after a year, I'd say we could sell 150 yearlong subscriptions, 100 3-month subs, and 100 1-month subs, for a total of $4900 in the first year, assuming we revert to the old business model (which may not be best).

$4900 is not much. Assume $1400/yr of server costs. That leaves $3500/yr. Assume we don't pay for advertising or have outside funding. $3500/yr is about 8h/week for ONE worker paid at $8/hr and working year-round, pre-taxes. You can play around with the math for that for the case of more paid people, less work time, or a smaller pay rate.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23207.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23207.page GMT
Just a thought.


About the financial situation, 5000$ a year (which I regard as a realistic sum) is certainly not much but is also certainly enough to keep the game alive and also allow for some development. So let's not get the spirits down, at least not until EA announces they don't want to part with their Weewar ownership. ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23209.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23209.page GMT
Has anyone actually talked to EA about what the current expenses are? What were the actual numbers of paid subscriptions?

And while I would love to see this be a real paying enterprise, the reality is like Plasma said: "enough to keep the game alive and also allow for some development." IMHO we HAVE to be able to break even, but not much else. Please keep those 1000 paying member visions in mind, but we dont have to achieve that. We HAVE to be able to pay the bills.

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23211.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23211.page GMT
any thoughts?]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23213.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23213.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23214.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23214.page GMT 0. our initiative was new to him completely
1. he said we need a leader or a responsible person otherwise we hardly can offer/negotiate anything
2. we need to start doing stuff, do something smaller, small features apart from weewar directly. I think it´s a good idea, to see if/how the the team can work together.
in other words: we need to start do something, not just talk
3. he suggests to offer EA some sort of collaboration
4. he thinks if some people come together who are motivated can achieve things but it is a lot of work indeed. weewar looks simple on the surface but is much work underneath and many who offer their help will leave being faced with that workload.
then we talked about the rip-off uniwar.com, it´s success and the mobile market in general. he said it was simply too much work for him to bring weewar to the mobile market back then.
finally he mentioned, if we´d get it, we should focus on making it run smooth again in first place, and that the reasons for server crashed probably are not to be found in the code.
[size=7]ps: I asked for his ok to post this[/size]

I also presented this initiative to bladum who was in the final stage of weebot development and whipped out an independent second framework back then, which was quite advanced (transport units + fog of war) but never got finished completely. I asked him if it does interest him, we´ll talk tomorrow, in my opinion he seemed interested but more in supportive role than in lead programming, because he starting up his own mobile / multi platform gaming business at the moment.

I´am also about to contact kajah tomorrow after I come home from my day job, who was the lone creator of the working and finished weebot framework in .NET, just want to ask him simply, if he´d be interested at all.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23215.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23215.page GMT
Kersplat (from [url=http://warnet.ee]Warnet[/url]) informed me about this idea and I would like to add another proposal to the basket. (I am developing [url=http://warnet.ee]Warnet[/url])

When playing weewar I felt that this game could develop into so much bigger and here could be so many cool features to make it better. But the problem was that no one was making it better, it is just standing and no one doing anything. That and the love for turn based strategy motivated me to make my own version and Warnet was born.

So my idea would be to transform weewar into Warnet engine. Warnet has all the game functionality weewar has and much much more (for example fog of war, history, charts, unit transportation, scripting capability to add interesting action paced campaigns. At the moment working on even better AI). Fog of war, unit transportation and history would be very complicated features to add to weewar. Probably forcing to rewrite big parts of the source... And who knows software costs, changing is a lot more expensive than making it right the first time (fact!)

Furthermore, Warnet engine is much more stable. (off course problems might happen, there is no 100% guarantee, but we haven't had any accidental downtime.)
Additionally, performance! Warnet is sitting happily in a shared host with many other websites also using the server, not in a dedicated server. Warnet is developed horizontal scaling in mind (adding more servers is easy to offer better performance).
And Warnet is built having different rulesets in mind with different graphics. In short, it is more like an engine, not just a game.

Maintance - For me it seems keeping weewar running is quite an expensive business - server problems, probably legacy code (not well documented, so new guys will have a headache in developing new features) and some of the errors are really weird and for me seem like architectural problems. (My profession is software architecture) Of course these are not facts and they might not be true, so correct me if I am wrong because I have never seen weewar source.

I also like weewar and have spent huge amounts of hours playing it and it is actually quite sad to see what is happening to it.

So let me know what do you think about this idea? I think it would definitely give a second life to weewar! I know that many of you find Warnet website different and feel home in Weewar, but try to imagine it

I am very excited about this idea!
Oliver]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23216.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23216.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23218.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23218.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23219.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23219.page GMT
Sooooo my preferance for weewar is based more on look and 'feel' than program / actual game.

Can warnet handle different unit/terrain versions? If so then it looks like a much better investment than fighting EA for rights and figuring out the weewar programing issues. Based on what others have said here and elsewhere the best we might hope for with weewar is to keep the current game alive for the old-timers and the occasional new addict (like me

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23220.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23220.page GMT
I meant that weewar ruleset (all the tanks, planes, terrains etc) would be copied into Warnet engine (and of course graphics too if allowed) and new site opened just using warnet engine. (It even does not have to be called warnet and on best scenario would still be weewar)

Like I said, Warnet has all the functinality weewar currently has + more, so it can replicate it easily. No battle calculations, unit stats etc would have to change.

Oliver]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23221.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23221.page GMT I don't think it's so difficult to replicate Weewars style. bright colours, simple graphics, maybe it won't be quite the same but close enough.
[quote]WeeSpy is pretty cool too, and weewar has a better player profile screen. [/quote]
Thanks for saying so, weespy can be ported to work with any game preferably with an API but if it has a website I can interface with it. There's every possibility it would work better with Balduran's API. The Weewar API causes me a lot of problems which won't be fixed without development. It's possible Balduran has done it differently/better or that some development can be done to make improvements.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23222.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23222.page GMT
As for take-over ideas: I feel we REALLY have to wait for an answer by EA if they're thinking about selling it or not, and at what price. It's fun to speculate until we get that answer, but there are obviously very (too?) many options. Who exactly has contacted EA when and what have they said so far? Have they acknowledged that they received the question? Is somebody there thinking about this at all?

Maybe the best way ahead would be following the "spadequack" scheme. I.e. elevating some more interested & capable players to admin/developer positions. That would avoid a lot of legal (who owns what after a take-over?), technical (server move) and financial questions (EA would keep on paying server & bandwidth bills). And that might be all it takes to get this baby moving again. I mean without spadequack, this boat would have sunk long ago. Imagine 3-6 spadequacks and I'm close to wee-Nirvana.

I have no ideas about spadequack's job's details though, like does he get paid at all? As freelancer or full-time staff? How many hours is he currently investing? How far reaching changes can he do? Has to ask some EA guy each time?

Warnet seems very nice. Might be a solid base for some weewar-flavored spinoff indeed. Copyright lawyer around?

TD
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23223.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23223.page GMT
[b]+1 @ Darkbee and RD[/b]
[b]
Also, thanks to Cas[/b] for the report on the chat with Bert. In response to his concerns: I think we already have leadership/co-ordination - R&G, Spade, me, you, and others who I think will get more serious as this gets more serious. The programmers are specifically interested in/have the skills to develop a mobile version - Rosy, his programmer friend, Rahl, Daithi, Yourtime, etc. Other answers below.

Can you ask Bert if he would be interested in helping us as we move forward?
Let us know what Bladum and Kajah have to say.

TY Cas!

[quote=thuldai]
As for take-over ideas: I feel we REALLY have to wait for an answer by EA if they're thinking about selling it or not, and at what price. It's fun to speculate until we get that answer, but there are obviously very (too?) many options. Who exactly has contacted EA when and what have they said so far? Have they acknowledged that they received the question? Is somebody there thinking about this at all?

Warnet seems very nice. Might be a solid base for some weewar-flavored spinoff indeed. Copyright lawyer around?[/quote]

Exactly. Spade wrote an email to Mark at EA and sent it on Saturday or Sunday. I reviewed it and it basically asked if they would sell, for how much, or collaborate with members, and in what form. I assume Mark has received the email - he did respond to the one I sent him back in the spring. I assume we will hear back from him soon.

My impression is that the majority of Weewarriors, especially the technically skilled and game developer ones, DO NOT WANT to work for free for EA to help them make money off Weewar. So, even if EA offered some collaborative arrangement in the present which would allow us to help save and develop the game yet keep it free for users, they would presumably, eventually, profit from that by re-introducing fees. I for one am against that path, although some may not be. I would be open to the possibility if those who helped were compensated I guess, for the sake of the community, but I'm not really excited about helping a maga-company like EA.

I, personally, am much more interested in being part of a community-based game - owned and developed by members. I like Balduran's offer a lot, but does it really go in that direction? Doesn't he want to make money off Warnet/a Warnet version of Weewar too, eventually? [b]Balduran, what say you?[/b]

Perhaps that's OK with folks, seeing he's not a big nasty EA-like monster?

...

[b]Scenarios:[/b]

1) Members of the wee-community buy the rights to Weewar from EA and work with others in the wee-community to fix and develop the existing code/game.

2) Members of the wee-community buy the rights to Weewar from EA. We shut it down/turn it into a link to Warnet, shifting the graphics and whatever is useful over to Warnet, making a deal with Balduran that ensures community ownership and direction of Weewar.

3) Some (i.e. more) of the wee-community defect to Warnet and establish a more Weewar-like game there, without any deal made with EA. Who owns and benefits in this case?

Other scenarios?

...

Also, from chat:

McMonster: There must be many examples from other copy-cat game copyright infringement cases. I will ask dbthaw, the lawyer, if s/he can do a little research

Daithi: it's like i said before, copyright is about stopping exact duplication

McMonster: anyone know any indy game-makers whove been hunted by the big guys?

....

Dear Weewarriors,

[b]Please read the first post [/b]in the thread for background info and the rest to get caught up on discussion to date.

PLEASE KEEP YOUR COMMENTS AS BRIEF AND SUCCINCT AS POSSIBLE SO THAT OTHERS WILL NOT BE INSPIRED TO BREAK YOUR FINGERS. And try to avoid poo pooy naysaying in this thread - thoughtful critiques welcome however!

[b]Please bookmark this webpage[/b] so that weewarriors can communicate about (buying) Weewar if the site crashes long-term or is shut down: http://saveweewar.wordpress.com/

[b]Please VOTE[/b] in the poll at the top of the thread.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23226.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23226.page GMT
1) I have not received a response from Mark, but Mark may not be working at EA/Bioware anymore. I had emailed Alex about this initiative too, and he said it's an interesting idea and to hold tight as he looks into some of the options. His signature title says Studio Manager, so it is likely that he has been promoted up to Mark's position and Mark is working elsewhere. I'll email Alex for an update soon.

2) Last summer, I did a paid internship with EA, working on Weewar. After the summer, I did some side work for pay for EA, and got some course credit for a project on it too. Tournaments and replay are built into the base code now, but 1) have not been tested well and 2) do not have an interface.

That paid side job ended in December. Since then, my access to the code repository has been revoked, which is understandable, so I cannot change the code. However, I maintain access to the server, and help restart it and address server issues as they arise. I also write on the blog and read and answer support emails. I am not paid by EA now and volunteer my time when Weewar has problems. I do not have to ask anyone to make changes to the server, but as a courtesy, I notify Alex of any major changes I make.

EA did not want people writing code without getting paid, and I don't think they want to pay someone the wage of a part-time software developer to work only on Weewar. Weewar makes no profit right now and costs them money to run, and the potential profit is very low, relative to the studio's other interests. These stances may have changed, but it's unlikely.

The idea of a community collaborating with EA to develop Weewar is, as far as I know, unprecedented, so we should wait and see what Alex finds out about the options here.

3) I believe a game concept cannot be copyrighted, so Warnet and other similar games are safe. A game's overall look and feel and [i]full set[/i] of creative game mechanics can be copyrighted though. Cloning Weewar using the same, or very similar, units and terrain tiles, with the same ruleset would I believe be copyright infringement. However, I don't think EA would care enough to do anything about it.

Edit: I think using slightly different graphics, and removing and adding some units and changing the rules just a bit would be enough to be safe from infringing. However, as Daithi brings up in the chat, even if we're in the right, we don't have the resources to fight a lawsuit from EA if they decide to bring one on us.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23228.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23228.page GMT
I've just read your topic and I have to say I'm quite impressed. I've been talking about it with a few people some time ago and it seemed impossible. I understand that it largely depends on response form EA/foremr EA employees, but it'd be great to save such a unique game.

I'm interested in the project. I'm no programmer, but I'm very creative person and I used to do graphics design (and I think I'm not bad at it) so I'd like to participate as a game designer (game mechanics, artwork, pixelart, webdesign). I'm a student so I should be able to invest about 3-5 hours/week (but it depends on circumstances).]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23229.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23229.page GMT 4. he thinks if some people come together who are motivated can achieve things but it is a lot of work indeed. weewar looks simple on the surface but is much work underneath and many who offer their help will leave being faced with that workload.[/quote]
Agree!

It's quite difficult to say something, because I see, there is much said, but enough questions open. If we ("we" in reference for the whole group) decide to make something new and try to catch the soul of weewar, we should think about the right start too, I didn't inform much about the current possibilities, but I think one of the most important thing we should focus is reusability, to convert to different languages for other plattforms and before we even start to think about the soul of weewar.. we will need a flexible and much extensible framework. I know, maybe it's quite early to talk about this, but better now than not.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23230.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23230.page GMT [quote=McMonster]
Purchase price is a total mystery to me. No idea what such a thing might be worth. Anyone else?
[/quote]

I think we ask EA to donate the software to the public as an Open Source software project. They get:
a) To save money, maybe, by no longer supporting a game which may be losing them money.
b) Good press
c) Trademark ownership. They get to keep to the Weewar trademark and brand, and decide how it gets used.

We get:
a) the game
b) to avoid the massive headache of ownership
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23233.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23233.page GMT 1. Will the 10 people get a 'share' that they can sell onwards at any time?
2. Will a set amount of the annual income be paid as a dividend to these 10 people?
I am sure there are many more questions...

My point being, how will you manage the ownership of weewar?
[/quote]

We are talking real money here and valuable intellectual property so we have to be talking a real business entity. Going corporate with shares may be a bit much, but a limited partnership might be a good model.

[/quote]


I suggested elsewhere asking EA to donate the game to the commons as Open Source software. Even if they wouldn't, and insisted on selling, I would still suggest that whatever entity purchases it make it Open Source.

I would suggest that a nonprofit membership association, run by a board of volunteers, be formed, and that this entity oversee both the game's development and finances.

There is little profit potential in Weewar anyway, but so much to gain by donating it to the commons:

a) volunteer contributions (not just shiny new features, but bug-fixes too)
b) avoidance of ownership battles, not just of the software IP, but of the bank account.
c) subjugation of the profit motive within any individual involved

The first step is to say to EA: "Look, we have a nonprofit, we have $1,000 in our corporate bank account, we have a hosting contract with Rackspace, and we have a project maintainer who knows the application well and has committed to maintaining it for a 1 yr term at 10hr/week. If you Open Source the project, and give us the Weewar trademark, and we will give Weewar a good home."]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23234.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23234.page GMT
Do you think they would be interested in open sourcing Weewar?]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23235.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23235.page GMT
I would suggest that a nonprofit membership association, run by a board of volunteers, be formed, and that this entity oversee both the game's development and finances.

There is little profit potential in Weewar anyway, but so much to gain by donating it to the commons:

a) volunteer contributions (not just shiny new features, but bug-fixes too)
b) avoidance of ownership battles, not just of the software IP, but of the bank account.
c) subjugation of the profit motive within any individual involved

The first step is to say to EA: "Look, we have a nonprofit, we have $1,000 in our corporate bank account, we have a hosting contract with Rackspace, and we have a project maintainer who knows the application well and has committed to maintaining it for a 1 yr term at 10hr/week. If you Open Source the project, and give us the Weewar trademark, and we will give Weewar a good home."[/quote]

Agree 100%! + EA gets the +ve press.

Does this mean you are volunteering to help us with co-ordination and business planning, and sitting on the board of the non-profit Maxi? I assume so and signed you up on the list in the first post of the thread. Please let me know if this is an inaccurate presumption!

....

Dear Weewarriors,

Please read the first post in the thread for background info and the rest to get caught up on discussion to date.

[b]PLEASE KEEP YOUR COMMENTS[/b] AS BRIEF AND SUCCINCT AS POSSIBLE SO THAT OTHERS WILL NOT BE INSPIRED TO BREAK YOUR FINGERS. And try to avoid poo pooy naysaying in this thread - thoughtful critiques welcome however!

[b]Please bookmark this webpage[/b] so that weewarriors can communicate about (buying) Weewar if the site crashes long-term or is shut down: [b][url]http://saveweewar.wordpress.com/[/url][/b]

[b]Please VOTE[/b] in the poll at the top of the thread.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23239.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23239.page GMT
I would suggest that a nonprofit membership association, run by a board of volunteers, be formed, and that this entity oversee both the game's development and finances. [/quote]

What if this was the base (I like this approach very much) + to motivate some people who have skills but wouldn´t want to contribute without any financial reward, enhance the base weewar trait to such a modularity/API connectivity that it is very easy for external mobile developers to port their versions, which wouldn´t necessarily need to be open source.

Developer "Mr Example" creates Weewar on Android/Iphone/Win7Phone/whatever within the bounds of the entity´s rules they agreed on. He sell his Weewar on the app marketplace for 2$(whatever) keeps the profit, makes weewar more popular while the base team can focus on improving the game while he does all the work regarding the mobile porting.

could this be a win/win situation?]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23240.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23240.page GMT
Pros: We get WW back in all its glory - graphics, scoring, community, etc.; we get a functional site that was architected with scalability in mind; we get stats, move indicators, FoW, brilliantly implemented chat functionality, and a whole lot more of the things the WW community has been asking for; we get a responsive developer again.

Cons: I'm having a hard time thinking of the downside. Maybe that the site doesn't look the same as we're all used to, but suck it up, things change. I'm sure there are others, but so far they don't outweigh the positives in my mind.

Personally I would rather have a fully functional game with a responsive developer and get used to a few changes, than have to deal with the "gears" message multiple times a day. I have largely migrated my game play to Warnet as it is. I still hang out with the WW gang and have a few games ongoing at one time, but that is solely for the community.

I know I'm not one of the more outspoken folks in the community (I'm no Darkbee), but I've been playing WW longer than most (I'm one of the few who date back to 2007) and I've seen all the good and the bad. I have some serious time invested along with a minor dollar figure and I would hate to see that all go away. If the issue of getting the rights from EA is going to be monumentally difficult, I say screw EA. They've done nothing to earn our loyalty (in fact, they seem to have done a great job of driving us away). If we can get basically the same effect by doing some minor tweaks after porting to Warnet, then by all means, I say we run with it and make it happen. Between what Balduran has created and Spadequack's intimate knowledge of WW, I think there is great potential to pull this off.

At risk of adding to the confusion, I'm more than willing to help coordinate. I'm an IT/Development Project Manager by trade and have years of experience managing this type of effort.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23244.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23244.page GMT Does this mean you are volunteering to help us with co-ordination and business planning, and sitting on the board of the non-profit Maxi? I assume so and signed you up on the list in the first post of the thread. Please let me know if this is an inaccurate presumption!
[/quote]

Hah, I appreciate your enthusiasm immensely and hope for nothing but the best! But, I have to be very clear on this -- I am not volunteering for this project in any capacity, no.

I just don't have time. This is not an impossible project but it's a very serious one, mostly because it involves managing a bank account and paying vendors. Much time and effort would have be put into it by a good-sized group of people.

I'm already spread so thin that I force myself to play just one weewar game a time!]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23246.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23246.page GMT
I love this idea -- so much simpler than trying to manage an entire software project out of a newly formed oganization.

To put it another way, Balduran has Fog of War right now!]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23247.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23247.page GMT
Developer "Mr Example" creates Weewar on Android/Iphone/Win7Phone/whatever within the bounds of the entity´s rules they agreed on. He sell his Weewar on the app marketplace for 2$(whatever) keeps the profit, makes weewar more popular while the base team can focus on improving the game while he does all the work regarding the mobile porting.

could this be a win/win situation?[/quote]

Causabon, it could be and to an extent it is among various Open Source projects. I work in the online software business and work closely with a popular Open Source project called Drupal. You might this post by the founder of Drupal interesting -- he compares his own project to Joomla, and Open Source tool which has a "features for sale" marketplace model similar to what you're envisioning. http://buytaert.net/joomla-vs-drupal-business-models-and-commercial-ecosystem

Mind you, I think a brainy game like Weewar has a pretty small marketplace.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23248.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23248.page GMT
It sounds like they are seriously considering an option or a few options and are working on the details, but it may be a little time before we hear anything concrete back.

I can also confirm that Alex is the head honcho of the studio for now, and knowing him and the fact that Weewar is his brainchild, I think he will push hard for a good future for Weewar and will be open to a variety of ideas.

Since we don't have much new info, I think we should start working out the details of one primary plan to pitch to Alex in case the option(s) that he is considering falls through or is unappealing to us in the community. In the case of moving to the Warnet architecture, what would need to be done?

Some questions:
1) Development - Balduran, are you willing to open source your code? If not, are you willing to take in external developers to build new features?
2) Business model - Would the Weewar clone be free to play? We need to consider server costs and compensation for developers and all others devoting time and effort.
3) Management - Would Balduran be in charge of overseeing the Weewar clone or would a new committee need to be formed?
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23249.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23249.page GMT
I am really glad to see that you like the idea of porting Weewar over to Warnet engine. I think it is definitely one of the best options to keep weewar going!

But there might be a few drawbacks for this idea, so let's open a little more concrete discussion.
Answers to spadequack questions
1) Opensourcing is not an option at the moment. Opensourcing warnet would create more clones and somewhat ruin the market. Another point to this is that I am running a small IT company and if this gets more serious I would prefer to hire local people, so we are much more efficient than with an international team.
2) This is a topic for discussion, but as you said, there are server costs and developer fees. At the moment for Warnet Inditel Meedia OÜ is paying running costs and will do so for weewar also at the beginning. But there should be something that generates income. I like weewar payment method and would recommend adding similar fee system. But what I do not like was that weewar was super limited for free accounts. I would like to introduce a little more freedom for free players.
3) I would prefer to be in charge. I think I would be quite a good candidate as I have a lot of experience in the field already (and playing weewar too. I was on top long time until you all guys decided to go over 2000 :p.) I am friendly and supporing for good and new ideas. I think this is a good point for discussion, problems, benefits?

As you see my vision is a little different compared to how you see it at the moment. I think definite plus side would be a strict leadership and that I have resources and motivation to continue weewar right now. Making a huge team/board might slow things down. I do not plan to start changing weewar, the idea would be to keep it as similar to current as possible. New ideas would be discussed with everyone first.

To continue I totally agree with spadequack that we should start working with details. Maybe go and chat somewhere to work it out? Open google docs to start writing it down? Skype meeting?

Let me know what do you think

Oliver
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23250.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23250.page GMT
Pros: We get WW back in all its glory - graphics, scoring, community, etc.; we get a functional site that was architected with scalability in mind; we get stats, move indicators, FoW, brilliantly implemented chat functionality, and a whole lot more of the things the WW community has been asking for; we get a responsive developer again.

Cons: I'm having a hard time thinking of the downside. Maybe that the site doesn't look the same as we're all used to, but suck it up, things change. I'm sure there are others, but so far they don't outweigh the positives in my mind.[/quote]

Thank you for your engagement kersplat! you make good points here. i am going to start a new thread asking weewarriors to give input on the ideal business model for weewar. and i've added you to the list if this ends up being something we work on ourselves.

[quote=maximus]I have to be very clear on this -- I am not volunteering for this project in any capacity, no.

I just don't have time. This is not an impossible project but it's a very serious one, mostly because it involves managing a bank account and paying vendors. Much time and effort would have be put into it by a good-sized group of people.

I'm already spread so thin that I force myself to play just one weewar game a time![/quote]

gotcha maxi - too bad, as you seem to have more experience and knowledge than the rest of us when it comes to open source projects. can we consult you for your wisdom at least if we end up going in that direction?

[quote=spadequack]I emailed Alex for an update. He says that [u]he will make an effort to expedite this as much as possible and keep me posted, and that they are committed to resolving it ASAP[/u].

It sounds like they are seriously considering an option or a few options and are working on the details, but it may be a little time before we hear anything concrete back.

I can also confirm that Alex is the head honcho of the studio for now, and knowing him and the fact that Weewar is his brainchild, I think he will push hard for a good future for Weewar and will be open to a variety of ideas. [/quote]

GREAT - thanks for the update Spade! Did you ask Alex about the open source idea? Can you please? What about selling to Balduran? Would they set up a competitor like that?

...
[b]
How much would you expect to pay Baldy/do you think would be a fair price for Weewar? [/b] Thank you, BTW, for clear description of where you'd like to take things. I will include this in a list of options for Weewarriors to vote on - when I get a few minutes to start a new thread!

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23253.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23253.page GMT Yes, I've mentioned both and I think they are both under consideration.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23254.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23254.page GMT Yes, I've mentioned both and I think they are both under consideration.[/quote]

AWESOME - ty spade!

OK folks, how bout we vote on and debate alternative possibilities for the business model/org structure for Weewar in a new thread - please cut and paste this text/link into your game chats:

NEW FORUM THREAD: What "business model"/organizational structure should Weewar move towards? Please VOTE and COMMENT: http://weewar.com/forum/posts/list/1519.page]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23267.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23267.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23268.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23268.page GMT
Perhaps you could help discover and iron out any imbalance and other issues of all new ideas?

My idea of working collaboratively for game development is:

1. Introduce and dscuss new ideas
2. After discussion, decide which ones will get to be tested
3. Implement the changes on a test server
4. Players test the changes/additions
5. After testing ends decision about the future of the changes

Since you don't have much time the 4th part is where your input could be crucial, top players like yourself surely can discover possible problems/imbalances which are not obvious from the start.

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23269.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23269.page GMT
Alex will keep me updated, and I will keep you all updated when I learn more. ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23282.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23282.page GMT
Sorry for the rant, but I have a feeling it's what a lot of people are thinking right now.

</rant>]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23283.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23283.page GMT
Alex will keep me updated, and I will keep you all updated when I learn more. [/quote]

Thank you very much for the update Spade. Good news? I hope? Sounds kinda familiar... maybe two months or longer?! I have to admit some sympathy for kersplat's reply above.

[b]Could you please let Alex know that we would appreciate a [i]specific update, with details on his plan, posted by him, ASAP[/i] - he can be as tentative and qualified as he wants, but we want to know what the plan is... NOW [/b]

We have been patient while EA has been neglectful for months and months. That is the least he can do to reciprocate.

The community is pissed, disillusioned, and mobilized, and I am toying with the idea of agitating for a wee-strike that might lead, eventually, to the community choosing to defect en masse and join a similar game that we can support and improve together.

And of course, weewar is, in large part, the wee-community. We have been surprisingly resilient and loyal, but enough is enough. We want answers today, tomorrow, Monday or Tuesday at the latest. I won't wait longer than that before I begin agitating.

Step one of the wee-strike will be calling for a 24hr wee-sit-in/out. Weewarriors will be asked to pop in and chat in the forums and on the chat thread, but not to take turns in any games for a specified 24 hour period. Those who play will be asked, politely, to stop for the duration of the day. My guess is weewar would come to a near standstill. Yes, we know that is not so uncommon, but this would be different. It would be a demonstration of wee-solidarity and our capacity to act collectively. It would be a gentle warning.

Please share this with Alex. ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23284.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23284.page GMT
I left Weewar for some time and when I came back, I saw the same players as before (I had been gone for more than a year), but the community, trials, blog, test server, almost everything was dissolved and the community became considerably smaller. Weewar is (and always has been) the best game of it's kind, however the EA "interference" killed it.

I understand that the WW purchase (not the planned one) might have seemed a good idea back then, however EA2D came up with their own projects (worse ones, really... Dragon Age? Are you kidding me? For crying out loud.) I'm quite curious, why did EA allow us not to pay for the game - it's just a proof that they didn't even care about WW for a REALLY long time. Servers cost something, everything has its own price, but it didn't matter to them.

As spade told us, EA is planning something. But I'm afraid it could turn evil. Weewar has the best combat system ever. The only thing I'm missing a bit is an addition of new features, which is missing since EA purchased WW and I think that's what made a lot of players to leave. Games have to undergo largescale development in a longterm in order to be successful - look at World of Warcraft, League of Legends! Huge companies, excellent games, huge profits. Their player numbers are growing. Not everybody is satisfied (I used to play WoW for a really long time and I know that now it's a shit), but the new features are very important - new features are what makes the game replayable, enjoyable, variable. That's what WW is missing in the first place (ofc it lacks more thing atm, advertisment, developers, servers, support etc).

The next terrible thing that could happen is Weewar connected to social media, like Facebook or Google+). You know, that shitty "The more friends you have, the better you are" stuff. That would absolutely RUIN EVERYTHING. But I fear that since it's so popular amongst game publisher community, it could happen here. And that would probably be the end of this reasonable and mature community (unlike 99% of other games, which are filled with 12-years-old children, who actually think that they are the best in the world even though they know nothing about it and you have to start crying because of their stupidity).

I would definitely like to see WW restored to the orignial state like 2 years ago. Let's start there and keep improving it. The worst mistake was the implementation of Flash. HTML is very capable of being the game engine and HTML5 possibilities are huge! And if we used HTML5, it'd be very easy to make WW smartphone+tablet-friendly (and it'd be easier for other platforms too).

I really don't know. EA should show that they really mean it and show us their plans (if there are any, which I doubt). They should even send their representative (and I don't mean spade) to forums in order to talk to us), it's not very big deal and it would really help. There are two options - Weewar could become very successful, or they could REALLY fuck it up. And our community hasn't had good experience with EA so I'm afarid they could choose the second option.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23287.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23287.page GMT
Alex will keep me updated, and I will keep you all updated when I learn more. [/quote]
Awesome to hear x)]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23288.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23288.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23292.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23292.page GMT
[quote=spadequack]I just spoke with Alex. There is a definite plan in motion for the future of Weewar, which would empower the community to do much more than it can do now. I know the details, but unfortunately, Alex is binding me not to say any more until more of the details are worked out and cleared with the rest of EA. I can say, however, that the idea is a good and promising one and it may be a month, maybe two months or longer, before the plan goes into visible action.

Alex will keep me updated, and I will keep you all updated when I learn more. [/quote]

In my response I pushed for a more immediate, detailed update from Alex himself. I hope Spade passed this request on to Alex.

[b]Did you Spade?[/b]]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23304.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23304.page GMT
@kersplat, your frustration is certainly valid. The plan is just a plan and may fall through. As such, although I maintain hope in Alex's plan, I recommend that we in the community keep considering other options like building off of Warnet.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23305.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23305.page GMT
I agree. They don't even HAVE to reply to us whatsoever. In which case of course, the "Balduran" plan looks as the only viable solution.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23306.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23306.page GMT
Why don't we develop an new Weewar? Get the best Ideas and take all these people which like to help and all the money from guys like me and develop weewar without flash so we will have an game that will work on smartphones too.

To easy or where is my failure?]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23307.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23307.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23308.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23308.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23309.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23309.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23315.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23315.page GMT
EDIT: Sorry for taking this somewhat off-topic. I didn't think it was necessary to start a new thread though. And there's no pm feature...]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23317.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23317.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23318.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23318.page GMT
I hope my intel is not expired, but I know developers who have definately done stuff with flash for ihpones and ipads. (And not using some overall language that can be exported to anything)]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23319.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23319.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23334.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23334.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23357.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23357.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23665.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23665.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23668.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23668.page GMT
I have faith in the people that know how to make it happen. I have been gone for a long time, but when I was lured back (it involved a Mexican beer, rohypnol and Darkbee) I see that all of my old friends are still here trying to keep this game alive. Two years and counting and Spadequack, McMonster, and DB are still here and very capable. On top of that, I see a good number of new people that have become excited for this game IN SPITE of all the bugs. These people weren't even here when the game was good and they still enjoy it and the community. Keep it up everyone! I'm useless so I can't offer anything unless you have a sidewalk to pour, or a wall to build.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23689.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23689.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23690.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23690.page GMT
Daithi: High time you finish your oh-so-awesome game, so we can all move over there. Quick!]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23691.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23691.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23692.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23692.page GMT
I don't mind at all if it's NOT like Weewar. As many others have said around here it might be time to find something new. And then something new again. And again. And then maybe isowar. To be seen.

TD]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23693.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23693.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23699.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23699.page GMT ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23706.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23706.page GMT
cool. congrats to Alex! yeah for new life and hope in the world!!!

thank you for continuing to try Spade. does Alex on leave mean that whatever plan EA was holding off on announcing is on hold until he is back?

...in the meantime, things seem to be relatively stable and mellow in weeland.

battle on ladies and gentlemen
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23709.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23709.page GMT
Update: I got a reply basically confirming this.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23710.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23710.page GMT ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23719.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23719.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23752.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23752.page GMT

To whom should I talk to regarding the current Weewar status? As much as I would love to read through 8 pages of forum posts, three external site forums and fourteen months of history that I've missed, I think I'd just like to hear what's up from the horse's mouth. Make no mistake, this is not a casual inquiry, so the more official the representative, the better.

I realize that Alex would normally be this person, but as he is away with child, who's next in line now that Bert is MIA? I'd like to set up a game/chat with whoever is the most viable, and informed, community representative.

Any thoughts?

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23796.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23796.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23799.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23799.page GMT I realize that Alex would normally be this person, but as he is away with child, who's next in line now that Bert is MIA? I'd like to set up a game/chat with whoever is the most viable, and informed, community representative.

Any thoughts?
[/quote]

Spadequack/Ryan is your man. You might also want to speak to McMonster who kicked off this initiative (although I believe he just left for a 3 weeks holiday in Thailand)]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23800.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23800.page GMT I realize that Alex would normally be this person, but as he is away with child, who's next in line now that Bert is MIA? I'd like to set up a game/chat with whoever is the most viable, and informed, community representative.

Any thoughts?
[/quote]

Spadequack/Ryan is your man. You might also want to speak to McMonster who kicked off this initiative (although I believe he just left for a 3 weeks holiday in Thailand)[/quote]

I agree that Spade is certainly the one to talk to. I'm just a rabble rouser. but i'd like to see weewar live long and prosper.

loving being back in thailand...
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23801.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23801.page GMT spadequack@gmail.com. I can get you in contact with Alex or someone from EA if you prefer to talk directly to them.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23804.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23804.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23814.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23814.page GMT
It's a great idea nevertheless, I've played WW for 2-3 years (on and off) - I want this game to be saved, don't let it die on us, I grew up with it ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23850.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1514/23850.page GMT