http://weewar.com/forum/posts/list/1.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
Then come back and check out the details

-----

[b]Concerns:[/b]

1. Naval units are too powerful against land units. Games with harbors on the map are usually focused on sea domination. Win the sea battle and you win the game.
2. The destroyer is too powerful and versatile. The dominant naval strategy is to amass destroyers with occasional battleships and subs. The build data confirms this - players spend more credits on destroyers than on any other unit.
3. Air units are weak and not very useful in naval battles. Flying an air unit in to attack a naval unit is rare and often leads to heavy unretaliated damage to the attacking air unit.
4. Subs can squat in uncaptured harbors and can only be stopped by other naval units. On a map where one player gets a harbor early, that player can build subs and squat them in uncaptured harbors, preventing opponents from building any other naval units to counter them and allow access to the harbor.
5. The DFA + mass trooper strategy is too dominant. All other units are barely used, except on fast, low income maps.
6. The DFA is too strong. It deals a lot of damage over a wide range. Better to have some sort of trade off - focused firepower at short range (tanks) or lower firepower at high range (artillery).
7. The berserker is too weak for its cost. Sometimes more effective to build a heavy tank which can repair 2 instead of the berserker which can repair only 1 yet has the defense.
8. The tank does not have a good counter in Trial games.
9. [minor] The speedboat is barely built and serves a very niche role in countering hovers in the sea or occasionally attacking boats to finish off a unit or gain gang-up bonus.
10. [minor] Air units are a pain to repair.

[b]Proposed changes:[/b]

1. [Addresses 1 and 3 above] Reduce land and air attack of boats - see below
2. [Addresses 2 above] See below
3. [Addresses 4 above] [b]Allow helicopters to do low damage (attack strength 4) to subs (with ZoC). Change helicopter move to 4-2 so that they can better retreat safely. Otherwise a helicopter attacking a sub would often be suicide for the helicopter.[/b]
4. [Addresses 4 above] [b]Reduce the harbor defense modifier for subs by 2.[/b]
5. [Addresses 5 and 6 above] [b]Reduce DFA strength vs Hard by 3, heavy artillery strength vs Hard by 1[/b]
6. [Addresses 5 and 7 above] [b]Make berserker attack twice and change movement points from 6->7 to be even with Heavy Tanks[/b]
7. [Addresses 8 above] [b]Add Heavy Trooper to the set of Trial units[/b]
8. [Addresses 9 above] [b]Reduce the cost of speedboats from 200 to 150[/b]
9. [Addresses 10 above] [b]Allow air units to repair on your own or your teammates' bases, [u]but not on neutral bases or neutral airfields[/u][/b]

[b]Changes to naval battle (exact numbers still being drafted):[/b]

[b]Split the destroyer into two units - the destroyer and the cruiser.[/b]

Destroyer (BOAT) [b]-> Cruiser (BOAT)[/b]
[b]Purpose: fast, relatively cheap, defensive, anti-sub and anti-air (specialized) ship with ZoC on all units. weak when attacking surface level units[/b]
Movement points: 12 (4 water tiles)
Range: 1-3 (1-2 vs subs) [b]-> 1-2[/b]
Cost: 900 [b]-> 700[/b]
Defense: 12
Attack strength:
hard:10 [b]-> 4[/b]
soft:10 [b]-> 4[/b]
sub:16
boat:10 [b]-> 6[/b]
amphibic:12 [b]-> 6[/b]
air:12
speedboat:12 [b]-> 6[/b]

Destroyer (BOAT)
[b]Purpose: fast surface-attacking ship. vulnerable to sub and air strikes. can't stop subs or air units moving by[/b]
Movement points: 12 (4 water tiles)
Range: 1-3
Cost: 900
Defense: 12
Attack strength:
hard:10 [b]-> 6[/b]
soft:10 [b]-> 6[/b]
sub:16 [b]-> 0[/b]
boat:10 [b]-> 12[/b]
amphibic:12 [b]-> 10[/b]
air:12 [b]-> 0[/b]
speedboat:12 [b]-> 10[/b]

Submarine (SUB)
[b]Purpose: close range unit that can only be attacked at close range. counter to destroyers, battleships, and other subs. vulnerable to cruiser and helicopter attacks[/b]
Movement points: 9 (3 water tiles)
Range: 1-2
Cost: 1000
Defense: 10
Attack strength:
hard:0
soft:0
sub:10
boat:16 [b]-> 12[/b]
amphibic:0
air:0
speedboat:0

Battleship (BOAT)
[b]Purpose: heavy-strength ship, made for targeting land and surface-level units at long distance. vulnerable to sub and air strikes. has ZoC on all units[/b]
Movement points: 6 (2 water tiles)
Range: 1-4 (1-1 vs subs)
Can attack twice
Cost: 2000 [b]-> 1500[/b]
Defense: 14
Attack strength:
hard:14 [b]-> 12[/b]
soft:10
sub:4
boat:14 [b]-> 8[/b]
amphibic:14 [b]-> 8[/b]
air:6
speedboat:14 [b]-> 8[/b]

Also, you can calculate average/expected damage without terrain modifiers or gang-up bonuses pretty easily. Take the attack strength of the unit against the type of the defending unit (A), subtract the defense of the defending unit (D), divide by 2, and add 4.5. Or in other words, expected damage dealt is (A-D)/2+4.5.

For example:

Cruiser vs Sub:
Cruiser deals expected (16-10)/2+4.5=7.5 damage to Sub.
Sub deals expected (12-12)/2+4.5=4.5 damage to Cruiser.

Destroyer vs Destroyer:
Destroyer deals expected (12-12)/2+4.5=4.5 damage to Destroyer.

[update 7/16: fixed +5 -> +4.5 in battle calculations]]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20834.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20834.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20838.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20838.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20839.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20839.page GMT
maybe a toggle during game set up?]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20840.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20840.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20843.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20843.page GMT Also, you can calculate average/expected damage without terrain modifiers or gang-up bonuses pretty easily. Take the attack strength of the unit against the type of the defending unit (A), subtract the defense of the defending unit (D), divide by 2, and add 5. Or in other words, expected damage dealt is (A-D)/2+5.

For example:

Cruiser vs Sub:
Cruiser deals expected (16-10)/2+5=8 damage to Sub.
Sub deals expected (12-12)/2+5=5 damage to Cruiser.

Destroyer vs Destroyer:
Destroyer deals expected (12-12)/2+5=5 damage to Destroyer.
[/quote]

The damage calculation is wrong. It is (about) 0.5 damage less than spadequack wrote because "The total number of hits divided by 6 is the number of sub units the opponent loses during the attack." is an integer division (truncate ).]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20845.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20845.page GMT
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20846.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20846.page GMT You can attack a jet and hit only one. You can attack a jet with 3 anti-aircraft and he can survive. When we notice the mobility from air units, it is very difficult to attack with many anti aircraft units.

On the other side, you can attack a anti aircraft with a bomber or a jet and the anti-aircraft losing.

I am agree with Nr. 5 but not with No.6. The DFA is very expensive, very weak agaist attack. When Troopers not so cheap, is very expensive to protect a DFA against Jets, Bomber, Boats etc.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20852.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20852.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20854.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20854.page GMT ).[/quote]

Whoops, my bad. I actually did catch that before I posted but forgot to change it.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20857.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20857.page GMT
first of all, I have a couple of comments on the chart you’ve posted on the blog. I think it would be more sensible to look at this distribution for 1600+ players only. Newcomer will inevitably make some buying decisions which an experienced would never make. Furthermore, as RD pointed out in the public chat, you have to distinguish between pro and trial games. Last concern: which units are built depends heavily on the map. That’s much harder to account for than the other two issues but I’d say looking at a longer period would be a start. I would question that a uniform distribution is actually desirable. Of course you don’t want extreme peaks like the destroyer but it's the nature of the beast that some units are versatile and others are for special situations.

I’ve not played on the test-server yet, but here's my opinion about the changes just from looking at the numbers:
I like the changes made to the heli, however, I think allowing air units to repair on bases makes them too strong. They were quite good already if you kept them away from sea units. Weakening sea units and improving their repair capabilities would be too much of a boost.
Allowing a berserker to attack twice and move as fast as a ht seems too much. A berserker can kill a ht in one round now. I’d like the berserker to be strong and slow, so 2 attacks and movement 6 would be my preferred choice.
The dfa change looks good but the heavy artillery seemed okay before. I wouldn’t reduce attack against heavy units for it.

The whole navy issue is more complex so I don’t want to comment before playing. Just one thing: reducing all sea units’ strength against speedboats seems very odd. That people didn’t use them much doesn’t mean they were useless. They were actually good value for money before. So reducing their cost and making other units weaker against them feels like an exaggeration.

Finally, in principle I’m in favour of keeping (or having) very large values for certain attack strengths. There is a temptation to flatten values in order to balance the game but I think that might lead to a setting where it’s less important to build the right unit in the right situation and that would essentially take away the rock, paper, scissors principle.
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20858.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20858.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20860.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20860.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20861.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20861.page GMT
It looks like to many light troopers are build.

Dealing with issue 5 it is imo more effective to reduce light trooper defense by 1 or 2 so that other light troopers can kill them more easily.

The speedboat was imo a very useful unit before and is good as a finishing unit. Also that most ships got their damaged reduced against speedboats makes them more useful. I think the reason for the low spending on speedboats was the lack of harbors to build them and not their price. Therefore i strongly suggest not to put the speedboat below 200. I used the speedboats on the testserver very effective as sea infantry and blocking key positions. They definately had a excellent price per use value. (to good for 150)

The naval battle is certainly more interesting now.

More comments later. ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20870.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20870.page GMT
now only show us 1+ years AND NO TRIAL accounts. that tank count is still way too high for any real experienced player.

while we're at it - how about fixing the tank unit? if nothing else increase its attack vs hover units by 2ish. a m1a1 abrams should shred a hovercraft. even without a direct hit, think about all the damage from the shrapnel as it gets up into the hovers fans.

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20876.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20876.page GMT
now only show us 1+ years AND NO TRIAL accounts. that tank count is still way too high for any real experienced player.

while we're at it - how about fixing the tank unit? if nothing else increase its attack vs hover units by 2ish. a m1a1 abrams should shred a hovercraft. even without a direct hit, think about all the damage from the shrapnel as it gets up into the hovers fans.

[/quote]

I'll see if we can get that graph without trial accounts.

About tanks - Hm. We'll consider that. Bert did increase tank attack vs Hard from 7 to 8 last time around. What does everyone else think?

@jeye - About speedboats, yeah, changing their cost was probably a bad move on our part.

Stirling also mentioned that about speedboats. He also said he would prefer Helicopters moving 3-3. Their role would become a bit more hit-and-run than currently on the live server. This would help with them retreating in the sea and also in taking out front line troopers safely (for issue #5). He recommended a number of other things which we'll also consider when we make changes in two weeks. ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20877.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20877.page GMT
my only strong reaction to the description of the changes has been covered re: speedboats.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20880.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20880.page GMT initial thoughts.

1) even at a cheaper price - BB now hamstrung vs naval units. not sure why i'd get one other than the chance to take 2 shots vs 1.
2) dd should have SOME damage vs subs. no naval (war)ship is that defenseless. at least zoc.


was there a rationale for downgrading the BB?

give dd att str 6 vs subs - will do 1-2 damage and exert zoc on subs. like BB vs jets.

The other stuff will take getting used to but intriguing. not sure if i like or dislike just yet.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20887.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20887.page GMT
Anti-aircraft cheaper? (takes a lot to down any plane) or having a random possiblity of being more effective?]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20913.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20913.page GMT
1. BBs should be king of the sea (and shore, to an extent), but they do too little damage now. I liked it better when they were strongest but with significant vulnerabilities (to subs, bombers).

2. Agree on *some* anti-sub capabilities and zoc for destroyers.

Otherwise, so far, naval warfare has certainly been more diverse and interesting.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20918.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20918.page GMT If the Battleship would do as much damage to boats as before the destroyer would have quite restricted use.

I think the Jet is to strong (and the spending on jets is rather high on the graphs) against ground units since you can normally do decent damage with it so that it is offen better to build the jet instead of helicopter or bomber if you want to fight land units. The jet has a higher defense gets less damage and can fight other aircraft to well to do decent damage against land units.
I suggest to adapt the attacks for a jet to the following:
Soft/Hard/Amph./Air/Boat/Speedboat/Sub: 4 / 4 / 4 / 16 / 4 / 4 / 0

This way the damage against everything but air is pretty low so that the jet would primarily be used as an anti air unit and a blocker (due to high defense).

This imo better than improving anti air (because the anti air works well if you know how to use it) or giving a bomber the ability to damage air units. ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20923.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20923.page GMT
1) Jets are to strong. I never build bombers because jets are more effective against more units. Turn down the defense on jets or
2) Bombers are too defenseless against jets. Turn up the defense against jets?
3) Anti-Air is too weak. It takes 2 or 3 anti air over 2 or 3 rounds to take down one aircraft. And thats if your lucky by positioning and timing your attacks just right. Either turn up the damage on AA's or increase mobility.
4) Currently, Subs are one time throw-away unit. They do alot of damage to naval units, but they never survive to fight another day. Maybe turn down the effectiveness of all naval units vs subs? Plus, subs should have the ability to attack ground targets from sea.
5) Berserkers with the ability to attack twice is a bad idea. They would kill everything in 1 round. Maybe you should make them cheaper.
6) Helo's are next to useless right now. In real life, they are very versatile and very mobile. Helo's should be effective against all ground targets and be more mobile.

Thats it for now. Can't wait to test the new naval units!]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20930.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20930.page GMT
There is 1 thing you could call it a detail for naval buffs, but still I`m not happy with it:
here is a quote from wikipedias [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser]page about cruisers[/url]
[quote]"...from the 1890s to the 1950s a 'cruiser' was a warship larger than a destroyer but smaller than a battleship."[/quote]
Throughout the 20th century cruisers were the more powerfull ships than destroyers, they had simply a larger hull, plating & firepower, while destroyers were the lighter class built in larger numbers.

So I`m afraid the names of those 2 ships really should be exchanged

also in modern navys cruisers are always [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_naval_ship_classes_in_service]listed[/url] as larger vessels above destroyers:
1.aircraft carriers
2.battleships (do not exist any more)
3.CRUISERS
4.destroyers
5.frigates
6.corvettes
7.patrol and missile boats
8.mine layers
9.amphibious

so pleeeease.... could you exchange names for cruisers and destroyers since cruisers should be the ones who punch and destroyers the ones who support?]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20946.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20946.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20964.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20964.page GMT
^ This. They should also get less of a defense bonus when on a base compared to an airfield, if any.

Also, I really dislike AA as it currently stands.

[quote=AO1784]I think anti-air for 300 is quite fair. In most cases, they are behind the front lines, thus allowing them to repair. I also note that buying just 1 AA gun and expecting that a successful counter to jets is wrong. As other players have mentioned, you need to but a few of them to be effective, and 4 or 5 could be quite an effective deterrent while protecting one's artillery.[/quote]

So make it more expensive, yet more effective. Churning out 4 or 5 AA guns takes 4 or 5 turns, during which that base can't build anything else.

[edit]After a couple of rounds, the Destroyers definitely provide some balance the AA equation, but they're useless on big land maps. Something similar on land would be nice.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20969.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20969.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20972.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20972.page GMT
Just thought I'd toss that into the pot as a non-active, semi-retired, still bitter, former mayor, Weewar member.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20974.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20974.page GMT ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20977.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20977.page GMT
Just thought I'd toss that into the pot as a non-active, semi-retired, still bitter, former mayor, Weewar member.[/quote]

Just accept the invite, let me kick you around Aruba a little bit and you can get on with this being back business for real ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20978.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/20978.page GMT
I realized that most naval units had their damage against speedboats and hovers removed. While hovers can be coutered with speedboats or raiders i see no cost effective tactic to kill enemy mass speedboats.
Lets say the enemy has 10 speedboats. How am I going to kill them without spending more than 2000?
The heavy trooper may do but only if the speedboats are closer to land - lets image they are not.

I think speedboats seriously need a weakness. For example lower damage against air units. ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21000.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21000.page GMT [/quote]

you could build 10 speedboats yourself
i still don't think there was anything wrong with the speedboat before. having the cruiser dealing less damage than destroyers against them does, however, seem alright....]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21006.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21006.page GMT I think the split of roles in the big boat class worked quite well. I used all ships in a mix mostly. The choice to buy either destroyer or battleship was dependent on target area distance and my cash reserves, so I used both, always accompanied with Air defense ships and some speedboats or a sub.
I also quite used the cheaper speedboats a lot on testserver. It was a nice occupation for far back harbors to chain produce them, if I had enough $$. I still would do it probably if their combat stats would be slightly worse for that price.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21008.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21008.page GMT



Casa, I keep expecting the battleship to dish out more damage than it does on the test server, heheh. Seems like something that moves that slow should deliver a punishing blow to smaller units. But, I do like the reduced cost and that seems like a good compromise, especially in the new mixed-use naval battles.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21029.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21029.page GMT
Lastly, I found I don't like the 2x attack of the Berzerker... maybe faster repair instead? The increased mobility is cool though.

Thanks for all your effort!]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21030.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21030.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21058.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21058.page GMT
@bdr - the berserker's increased mobility is very subtle: A change from 6 to 7 just means that the berserker can travel across one plains/repairshop tile (cost 3) + one desert tile (cost 4) whereas before it could not do both. it is fairly uncommon and was done just to level it out with the heavy tank, making it easier to remember the movement powers of both.

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21060.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21060.page GMT I use it to clear path for my lighter units to get onto enemy artillery when there is a narrow path of access. the berserker alone still cant get them, but it can open room for more mobile units now as most of its attacks result in a kill. throughout this [url=http://test.weewar.com/game/238841]game[/url] we both used a handfull of berserkers and had some nice interim victories. I hope I got the upper hand there now ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21065.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21065.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21072.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21072.page GMT
Has any consideration been given to [i]removing[/i] units? In all my years of playing games, board to computer, I'm very wary when talk moves to adding units to make a game better or fix supposed issues. So far in the games played on the test server, I've seen no real shift towards getting a wider range of units used. If anything, I think the game would be best served by eliminating or combining of units.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21077.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21077.page GMT
Has any consideration been given to [i]removing[/i] units?[/quote]

I think removing units is a bad idea because every unit has a situation where it is useful. This situation may be rare and therefore there are not so many credits spend on some units. The examples you give certainly have their purpose:
Assault art: good to kill DFA. Also useful as a flexible and fast first hit unit if you can afford it.
Light art: good against trooper clusters.
AAA gun: good to kill air units. Particularly when teamed up with a jet.
]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21082.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21082.page GMT
A daring question (could we remove units) to ask perhaps...although in the end, I'm pretty fond of what's there now ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21085.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21085.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21139.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21139.page GMT
I'm playing Devil's Advocate I know, but couldn't you argue that you could always play without destroyers, with that logic, or on a non-sea map? The game is income driven anyway, given equal skill, so I guess you're saying that the more complexity, the more chances a richer, but less knowledgeable player won't know how to use the huge variety of units as well.

Does chess rely on this? Is that skill? I guess so many times we like to cover all bases, but I have always felt that something that is both simple and complex - aka "the minute to learn life-time to master" mantra - requires design genius. Not that I mind particularly, but I've lived a lifetime of "Wouldn't it be cool if we add this", to find real improvements arrive more rarely than I'd hoped.

Don't get me wrong, love all the suggestions and putative plethora of new units, but I'm lazy, old and lack the time, so I'd like to make the best of a focused game vision. Something in between chess and Medieval Total War (insert complex strategy game of choice). But just my $.02 ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21147.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21147.page GMT always makes me think of [url=http://download.lardlad.com/sounds/season12/poppy16.mp3]this[/url].

[size=7]btw, why is it so annoyingly hard to find video snippets on the internet these days? [/size]]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21148.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21148.page GMT
I think you've got

[quote=Shulgin]btw, why is it so annoyingly hard to find video snippets on the internet these days? [/quote]

Would that be due to copyright gone mad?

Another daft idea - drop the Anti Aircraft and up the strength of attack artillery v aircraft. That would work I reckon. Maybe (*tries to sound caring*)

Daft perhaps only because units are one of the differentiators between trial and pro, so if I were the business I wouldn't want to do this

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21179.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21179.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21185.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21185.page GMT )

So there you go Weewar Towers, one less unit to support and some lesser used units get a little more interesting and useful. Now where's our commission RD? ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21187.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21187.page GMT I think removing units is a bad idea because every unit has a situation where it is useful. This situation may be rare and therefore there are not so many credits spend on some units. The examples you give certainly have their purpose:
Assault art: good to kill DFA. Also useful as a flexible and fast first hit unit if you can afford it.
Light art: good against trooper clusters.
AAA gun: good to kill air units. Particularly when teamed up with a jet.
[/quote]
Assault Art: Are Assault Art really useful to kill DFAs? If they were, you would think we'd see a higher bar for them in both graphs since DFAs are so prevalent, but they're still one of the least purchased units. From my experience, the conditions needed to get 2 Assault Art up close to kill a DFA are near impossible, and an easier route is to just use a fighter. I do agree they're useful on resource-rich maps where you can pump them out early, but that's a very rare (and map dependent) purpose.
Light Art: With the DFA & mass trooper strat you would think these would be used more often. They're not. I certainly have no problem with them in-game now, but again they're a very niche unit (in rough terrain against mass inf swarms, usually in an area where neither player is pushing hard).
AAA: I have no issue with these as is, but my understanding was most players think they're rather useless.

If not removing them, why not at least make changes to their stats? The changes made so far on the test realm do nothing to make players want to build the light art and assault art more (though I'm seeing more air units in my games, so maybe AAA will be indirectly buffed as a result). What would be wrong with making light art do more damage, or cost less, or both? And with assault art... well, yeah, I'm still not sure what intended role it's meant to fill. It's too expensive, too small of range, and too little punch even against light units. Would any player really shed a tear if it were removed?]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21192.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21192.page GMT I agree. The destroyer is too good at everything right now and as such we see them purchased the most. However, why make a new unit to fix this issue? Why not just drastically drop the soft, hard, and boat damage of the destroyer so that it's only useful against subs and air (like the cruiser is on the test server)? The BB is now useful because it's the only way to rule the seas and bombard the land, and you'll still need destroyers to protect them from air and subs.

Making BBs more prominent would also slow down naval gameplay, which would have the indirect effect of making land combat more important. The problem with destroyers in the live version now is that they are extremely fast with good range. Moving a naval force across the Med in one of Stirling's Europe maps would be much slower with a BB heavy force, and give time for land combat to play out as well as an opponent to build up defenses. Isn't this, in a way, what the changes are aiming for?

What I'm seeing on the test server is mostly destroyers, with cruisers for protection, and BBs built very rarely. The latter's only use is for shore bombardment, which is a niche role.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21193.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21193.page GMT )

So there you go Weewar Towers, one less unit to support and some lesser used units get a little more interesting and useful. Now where's our commission RD? [/quote]

I think your commission comes in the form of a digital pat on the back and a chance to lose more points to General_Death.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21196.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21196.page GMT
Hehe, it figures

]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21200.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21200.page GMT .) base protector: best choice to protect a base quickly if 2 enemy land units (other then troopers) are approaching your single unprotected base. solid & cheap defense against most enemies.
.) passive air defense: the best unit (lowest price and terrain bonus) that can be built to have a no air zone created with their ZOC, if placed in 3 distance from each other, ideally on bonus terrain as mountains and such.
.) tank battle resolver: kills a weakened tank of any kind, if it was damaged by other unit(s).

>>> hv trooper is VERY usefull

usefullness of LT. ARTILLERY:
.) early attack emphasis: in early or low income trooper driven game LA stays affordable and it's cost efficiency relation is among the highest. a well placed and accompanied LA makes a base conquerable if enemy can't build anything worth 300$ or more there.
.) attack bonus dealer: reduces defense strength for successive attacks rather then dealing much damage to medium units.
.) first line eliminator: in late trooper spamming game, LA can be usefull next to heavy artillery (or DFA) to weaken enemy's first line of trooper attack and prepare them for finishing of with your defensive troops. your HA is free to attack approaching hard units then. LA does the same job as HA here but is much cheaper.

>>> lt artillery IS usefull

usefullness of AT. ARTILLERY:
.) quick attack support: the move and shoot ability makes this unit best choice, if you plan to take a closeby trooper defended base within move range along with 2 other units. other than LA or HA the assault artillery can attack instantly within a radius of 6 & suffers no counterdamage.
.) DFA counter: usefull after other units shot a hole into enemy troops defending a HA or DFA and opened a path for your ATA.
.) second use purpose: in mid-game you can use your ATA for weakening enemy aircraft to be finished off by your AAs or due to its high mobility to hunt down heavily damaged enemy aircraft or support land combat.

>>> at artillery IS worth it in a series of special situations]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21202.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21202.page GMT
The build numbers are merely suggestive, they can NOT be a basis for a true balancing attempt because they lack any grounding in the circumstances of the build

[quote=skywalkre]
Assault Art: Are Assault Art really useful to kill DFAs? If they were, you would think we'd see a higher bar for them in both graphs since DFAs are so prevalent, but they're still one of the least purchased units. From my experience, the conditions needed to get 2 Assault Art up close to kill a DFA are near impossible, and an easier route is to just use a fighter. I do agree they're useful on resource-rich maps where you can pump them out early, but that's a very rare (and map dependent) purpose.[/quote]

Assault Art's can easily change the game, and are esp. useful at the beginning and end. Yes they are useful at killing a DFA and even more useful at crippling one. People anchor their defenses around DFAs and if you cripple one you get a nice place to attack. People also push their attacks with DFAs, the presence of an Assault art hampers an opponent's movements and by crippling a DFA in a key position, can stall an offensive and turn the battle. The move+fire at range is useful in a number of other situations as well.

[quote=skywalkre]
Light Art: With the DFA & mass trooper strat you would think these would be used more often. They're not. I certainly have no problem with them in-game now, but again they're a very niche unit (in rough terrain against mass inf swarms, usually in an area where neither player is pushing hard).
[/quote]

These are actually used a fair amount and are general purpose, useful in almost any situation, price and power is at a good level since their price was lowered last time.

[quote=skywalkre]And with assault art... well, yeah, I'm still not sure what intended role it's meant to fill. It's too expensive, too small of range, and too little punch even against light units. Would any player really shed a tear if it were removed?[/quote]

YES]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21205.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21205.page GMT
And I would shed many tears if the assault artillery or the light artillery are taken away. Assault artillery can play a wide range of roles, and it's a very versatile unit]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21208.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21208.page GMT But I would just like to point out that Assault Artillery is an extremely crucial unit!

They are extremely useful against DFAs (especially in maps without airports )
and the only ranged land unit that can move & shoot.

I would seriously miss it

I also use Light artillery extremely often, especially in all those 50/cred per base maps that seem to be overly popular these days.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21457.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21457.page GMT ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21459.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21459.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21551.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21551.page GMT http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21552.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/21552.page GMT ]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/23781.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/23781.page GMT
1. Allow aircraft to repair anywhere, just one unit strength. Continue with 3 on the airport.

2. Certainly not get rid of Light Artillery, Assault Artillery, and Anti-Aircraft.

3. Weaken jets against helicopters. Jets make helicopters impractical as a general rule. Could you change the movement to 4-2 or 5-1? If you move 5 you could move 1 but if you move up to 4 you could move 2.

I don't have time at the moment for naval comments, that's going to take awhile.]]> http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/24396.page http://weewar.com/forum/posts/preList/1313/24396.page GMT