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2Bee

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You know what is really ironic... the United States was founded on trying to get away from that very same thing.

Ah the evil clutches of the monarchistic motherland. The good old days!

Po

Berserker

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troymadsen wrote:I have to agree with VT on this one. No other country has as vast and far-reaching of a "foreign policy" as we do. At times it seems like we are policing the world. Just isn't right and people are starting to hate us for it...or at least show their long felt hatred in now visible and often violent ways.


I think we just choose the wrong targets. There are people everywhere in the world that would thank God for our help and supplies...We just don't go there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 08/11/2008 11:55:38

VTTruck

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+1 to what po said. some of those places are in the usa.

Streen

Heavy Tank

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Ecko wrote:Since when did Americans think they can control everything? Enlighten me.

pretty much exactly since after the second world war, after which the whole world was in shattered peaces and the US were the only ones that actually earned money on it, and as such the US had nobody that could oppose them in any way, both military and economically. Your president at the time declared that The US is not the strongest nation on the planet and that this status must be uphold at all cost.
Most Americans still don't wanna face that fact that this status isn't true anymore since decades....

troymadsen wrote:I have to agree with VT on this one. No other country has as vast and far-reaching of a "foreign policy" as we do. At times it seems like we are policing the world. Just isn't right and people are starting to hate us for it...or at least show their long felt hatred in now visible and often violent ways.

Let me enlighten you, I have spoken to many people coming from nations all around Europe and the world, so believe me when I tell you that people dont start to hate you, but they really DO hate you. Nobody loves America these days and everybody is scared about what some lunatics in charge over there might do, there is no respect whatsoever. And all this is really funny cause after 911 you had the compassion of the whole world, everyone was on your side, and in just a few years you guys managed to piss EVERYONE off. Here in Europe, we were just hoping to live and see the day of the next re-election and hope that it would come before the next world war...

Now that you got a new president, most people might give it another try though. This was the best thing that could have happened to your nation. No matter how much Obama screws up, he will probably never be as bad as your current one.

anyway,I am just being honest, try to give you a european perspective

VTTruck

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no worries about being honest. you're spot on. not glad being part of the big bully nation,
but cant move to europe. everything is built too small over there.

troymadsen

Tank

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Streen wrote:Let me enlighten you, I have spoken to many people coming from nations all around Europe and the world, so believe me when I tell you that people dont start to hate you, but they really DO hate you. Nobody loves America these days and everybody is scared about what some lunatics in charge over there might do, there is no respect whatsoever. And all this is really funny cause after 911 you had the compassion of the whole world, everyone was on your side, and in just a few years you guys managed to piss EVERYONE off. Here in Europe, we were just hoping to live and see the day of the next re-election and hope that it would come before the next world war...


Well here is the devil's advocate side of it:

America, as one of the wealthiest nations in the world, implements arguably the most humanitarian effort around the world, both from our government and from businesses and individuals in general. You can google search US based humanitarian organizations and come up with an impressive list. While I do agree that we have done some things overseas that we shouldn't have, I think the world would do well to also notice all the good that America does across the world. People are always quick to point fingers at America when there are atrocities going on the world and say "why don't you help" and then when we try to it can often get thrown back in our faces.

VTTruck

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Sure, but many times we send our humanitarian efforts to places where either
A) we arent invited
or
B) we cant ensure the help gets where it needs to go

in both those cases we claim we need to send our military along to
make sure the hershey bars and cigarettes are reaching the
needy kids.

Darkbee

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To defend The US, because I think it's true that US does bring some good to the world. I don't think there's a nation on Earth that hasn't done something at one time or another in its history that is questionable. Britain had an empire at one time and was seen as the big bad bully. Likewise, the Romans were also seen as bullies, and the Huns, and the Vikings and so on and so on.

Unfortunately, there has probably never been a nation as powerful as the US, in the history of mankind, politically, financially and materially, and I think that is what upsets and scares at lot of other people around the world. Particularly when a man of questionable intellect such as Bush is in charge of a large percentage of those resources.

VTTruck

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Hey now - his intellect isn't questionable. It's proven to be quite low.

troymadsen

Tank

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Well said DB. Well said.

Lucian

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@ Bee: Your statement "there has probably never been a nation as powerful as the US, in the history of mankind, politically, financially and materially" is incorrect. If we're looking at countries in terms of culture and power, we have to look at it in terms of how they stood respective to their time. The Roman and the Chinese Empires even though worlds apart back in their days dominated their regions without question. The Mongol Empire in times of Genghis Khan extended across half the known world back then. The British Empire at it's height stretched across all the continents. They had money, power, you name it. Hell even pre and early World War II Germany was incredibly powerful. Modern US wouldn't dare take on the world like that.

In any case, as I always say, anyone with power can and will abuse it. It's in human nature to do so.

I think that the biggest thing that pisses people off about the modern day States is that they go where they're not wanted. Troy mentioned people asking for help, but that's a whole load of crap. No one wants the US presence near them. Both sides will inevitably get bombed and shit will only end up worse than it would have been originally. In the history of the world there has always traditionally been a winner and a loser in every war. To the winner go the spoils. Simple as that. Nowadays, when the US rocks in, everybody is a loser and somehow everyone always ends up owing money to the States.

The one thing that people in the US don't seem to get is that people from other countries dislike the government and the brute military forces that get sent into places where they shouldn't be, not the people. However it's not so much the "blind support" of the US public for their own troops (which is normal patriotism for any country), but rather the willingness to tell everyone else that they're in the wrong based on what you see through the filtered news channels without even being there and understanding what's happening that pisses people off. On the same token I know people who push for anti-US propaganda because it's suddenly become the popular thing to do.

In short... both sides are wrong. Let the governments fight their fights, but as people, for your own damn good, before you start making judgment calls learn a little bit about the other side. Look up the history of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia and Kosovo. Look a little deeper and you'll see why people fight. The media is filtered, but at lest over the past 15 or so years we've been blessed with this wonderful thing called the Internet which allows us to share unfiltered information and to share our thoughts, which prior to that we usually kept hidden. For those of you in the US, look outside of your own world for a moment and realize that there are countries where it's downright impossible to find a job that pays more than a few hundred dollars a month if that. Realize that this isn't just something you look at for five minutes and forget about as it happens 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of their lives! That's a bloody long time. You don't have to "help" but learning about what's out there will do you a lot of good.

As for those outside of the US... if you have regular Internet, check out their history. Even though it's a new country it does have a lot of interesting history. Learn a little about the issues that happen in the US and understand that people don't always see things from your view point. Granted, that's easier said than done.

The best thing for everyone would be to travel more. See the world. Each country, each city, each person you meet will change your view of this world ever so slightly. The more things you see the more angles you'll have on any given subject.

Darkbee

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You're right, it's a different world; I can't even take a s**t without the government knowing about it.

troymadsen

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For your information Lucian, I have traveled the world and probably been to places poorer than you have been. I spent over a month in the country of Namibia (southern Africa...look it up on a map cause I am sure you've never heard about it) traveling around and ministering to some of the poorest people in the world. A lot of whom lived in homes made of discarded road signs, cardboard, trash, etc. So don't assume that we are all so ignorant, please. The point I was trying to make is that the people of the United States get a bad rap, as you stated it has become the "cool" thing to hate us, and if all of the relief efforts that come out of America (government based, private based, etc.) were to completely stop there are a lot of people all around the world that would be in a much worse position then they are now.

Lucian

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@ troy: Now you're the one assuming and doing a pretty piss poor job at it. First and foremost I didn't direct my comments at you. I understand that for every generalization there are exceptions, but I also understand that for generalizations exist they must have some point of basis which a certain group has in common. My comment at travel was thrown everyone's way and not for purposes of showing anybody up, but rather to pass on advice I myself found useful. Traveling to different places exposes you to things that you never even thought existed and it changes perspective on life, which in my case has been positive. Sometimes hard to swallow but on the whole a very enlightening experience and there is no reason why I wouldn't want to share that with others.

As for your comment about you being places poorer than I have been, you are fully talking out of your ass now and what's more you're doing it for no other purpose than to be a prick. This is exactly what I was talking about. You spent a month in Namibia helping a handful of people and you feel all high and mighty because of it, actually convincing yourself that you know what life is like there better than everyone else you meet. Please, I knew of Namibia when I was ten years old, not because I wanted to but because I had to. Don't take me the wrong way, at least you've been there and seen some of the things that happen, which is good, but don't think that just because you spent a month there you know what it's like to live there and where everyone else has been. I'm not talking out of my ass here mate. I've been places and I've seen a lot of things. Hell I've lived in and have family in some of the places you wouldn't dream of going on a holiday to. I've known first hand what it's like to be at the lowest end of the spectrum as well as some of the higher heights. I've been very blessed in life in that regard and have seen and experienced many things. This is not to say that I saw more than anyone I meet. Far from it. I'm not that ignorant. I just try to share what I do know and I throw it out in everyone's direction for everyone's benefit.

You've seen homes made of discarded road signs, cardboard boxes and trash? I used to run through entire blocks like that as a kid. We had one just down the road from us. Hell, I used to play football with some of the kids from that block. We used to call it Cardboard City. My point was not to bag on the US. It's just that I've lived in both the "Western" and "Eastern" parts of the world as well as third world countries. Things just work differently. You have poor people in every place across the world, but its drastically different in a country like Zimbabwe and a country like Switzerland. As such, let's try to pull out the elements of you and me out of this conversation and focus on the actual topic.

As both of us say United States gets bagged because it is the cool thing to do, but it became that way for a reason. Think. In the past 100 years. How many wars can you think back of? How many of those wars was the US involved in?! How many of those wars were on US soil? See my point?

Like you said, there are people who would be in a worse position, but for every country/group that falls, another would benefit. As things stand now, both countries get screwed and the benefit goes to the US government. It screws up the balance of power in that region and no one actually gets anywhere. After a war happens the last things those countries need is a multi million/billion dollar debt. In those cases, it's best if the US never gets involved in the first place... and more and more people world wide don't want the US anywhere near them. I understand exactly why a lot of countries feel that way, but at the same time a crapload of people are just jumping on the bandwaggon at this stage.

Hopefully the election of Obama means more internal emphasis and bettering the country as opposed to pumping more funding into the military and screwing up everybody else's worlds.

VTTruck

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<whistling noise of doom> Po, DB - run.... incoming artillery.....

<ducking and covering>


Somebody send a messenger aronud when its safe to come back out.

Clearly Lucian and Troy need a best of 7 one-on-one series to sort this out.
I volunteer Po/DB/me to pick the maps.

let the games begin.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 09/11/2008 13:11:44

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