Weewar Forum

**Askyndr** · This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 06/06/2008 14:57:09

Darkbee wrote:If people are determined enough to undertake secret activities they will find a way. What do want 224bit encrypted secure satelite uplink? How secret does it have to be because everything you do on the Internet can be monitored, somebody somewhere knows your online activities. If I can get a message to somebody I'm playing a game with, external to that game, without you seeing it then wouldn't that be considered private? Do you sit there and monitor the community chat 24 hours a day? How does NOT having a private messaging system prevent me from talking to Weewar users outside of the Weewar site.

One of the developers is meeting some people in New York city for God's sake, IN PERSON.... how do you know that they aren't going to conspire to ally against you future games?

You're completely missing the point. I agree that having a PM system will make it easier but, if somebody wants to do it that badly they will find a way, regardless of what exists already. I don't see how not having a private messaging system avoids that problem.

Oh and if you want a concrete example, my Weewar profile contains my website address. If you go to my website you can find an email to contact me. I'm not the only one, there are plenty of others here whom I could contact externally of Weewar if I so choose.

ok, i give up, hands down, you won this discussion with brilliant arguments. of course something that would make secret alliances easy a 1-2-3 like a PM system is quite on the same as pidgeons, web sites and whatnot

. if you think i'm paranoid, think again. give people tools and they use it. in weewar there's already cheating, and i for one don't want to offer them even the means for it.

but however, as long as the system is not implented (what i hope for) i'll go and shiver of being conspired against by pidgeons carrying information between other users in my game

...

**Darkbee** · This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 06/06/2008 15:16:11

NOT having a PM system is NOT going to stop cheating. You said yourself there is cheating already.

I completely understand what you are saying, that if you make it easier to cheat then cheating will become more prevalent. I totally understand that, but you can't NOT give people things just because it might prevent bad things from happening (where MIGHT is the key word). I happen to disagree that cheating will increase and I think that is where we differ.

The legal age for drinking in the United States is 21 years of age. Plenty of youth drink alcohol under the age of 21, what is the solution? Make drinking alcohol illegal? The US tried that already and it didn't work. Youth under the age of 21 drinking alcohol in the United States always happens and always will.

Why don't we continue this conversation with my 31 year old male friend from Switzerland*... oh wait, that would be you! If I spend 2 minutes to find a way to contact you externally from Weewar, then 100% of Weewar users can, IF they really were determined to do so**.

*And I didn't get THAT from your Weewar profile!
**No PM system required

**Askyndr**

Darkbee wrote:NOT having a PM system is NOT going to stop cheating. You said yourself there is cheating already.

I completely understand what you are saying, that if you make it easier to cheat then cheating will become more prevalent. I totally understand that, but you can't NOT give people things just because it might prevent bad things from happening (where MIGHT is the key word). I happen to disagree that cheating will increase and I think that is where we differ.

The legal age for drinking in the United States is 21 years of age. Plenty of youth drink alcohol under the age of 21, what is the solution? Make drinking alcohol illegal? The US tried that already and it didn't work. Youth under the age of 21 drinking alcohol in the United States always happens and always will.

Why don't we continue this conversation with my 31 year old male friend from Switzerland*... oh wait, that would be you! If I spend 2 minutes to find a way to contact you externally from Weewar, then 100% of Weewar users can, IF they really were determined to do so**.

*And I didn't get THAT from your Weewar profile!
**No PM system required

well, first: you would prevent kids from drinking if there was no alcohol to get. sure, theoretically, with much money and some contacts they could import it, but it would prevent 99% of those kids to get to them. according to your logic we should sell needles and crack in every supermarket because people are bound to get them anyway. it's POSSIBLE, so why even bother resticting it or preventing the means to get it?

however, i'd rest the case. i'm really tired of proving the obvious. i'll see what gets implemented, how it turns out and consider what i'll make out of it.

**Lucian**

Bael I get where you're coming from, but I guess this would be something the WWPA would look out for. I must disagree with you on the point because whilst the PM system would have room for abuse, it also has many more advantages which are much needed.

If you're really all that worried about cheaters just use the paranoid wo/man's guidelines:

- Play only against people you know, you've played against before or people you know are trustworthy from the community viewpoint.
- If you get challenged by members with a very low score for the first time (particularly multiplayer games), play unrated games only or decline.
- Always check the WWPA 'graylist'.

I don't see much reason to worry about your score though. If I lose 20 points and find someone cheated for it, I'd slap them on the graylist and would be happy to pay that price to share that knowledge with everyone else. Scores really aren't that big of a deal.

**VTTruck** · This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 07/06/2008 00:12:58

weewar current private chat system:
start a private game with private chat with the other player. dont take any turns. send the message
and abandon before turn 3. no points lost. message delivered.

those who want to abuse the system will. again - you can keep folks from cheating. just dont play with them
and make sure others know about their behavior.

I have 3 or 4 games going with the same group of friends. we all have each others email and
have been forming private alliances and breaking them regularly. its part of how we're playing with
each other. we also dont do that when other players are in the game.

You cant stop the cheating, only avoid those you find doing it.

Just like many of us have second (or more?) accounts. but we dont drone. doesnt make us cheaters.

unless you count getting around the 4 game limit by having multiple personas cheating

**NickDanger**

Here's why I wouldn't implement private chat if I were the admins - one big unnecessary headache. It would get abused, and not just for cheating. You have have people harassing others via the system, hard up guys trying to pick up any player they think is female, etc.

Then you'd have the victims complaining to the admins who have to start policing it, looking into complaints, sending warnings, blah, blah, blah. I'd leave it where if people want to contact each other they have to do it outside of WeeWar's jurisdiction.

But that's just my opinion from the admin POV. Personally, I don't care one way or the other about it. If it was there I'd probably use it, but I don't miss not having it.

**Lucian**

The standard PM utility usually comes with a block feature which would negate that harassment aspect.

**Guido**

It seems that one of the arguments against a PM system is that people would "cheat" and form alliances. Is that considered cheating? What is the problem with that? If you form an alliance, you will have to break it in the end to win.

Po

You could always implement something that makes it so you can't send PM's to anyone that you're actually in a game with.

That way, you can't form alliances and stuff behind someone's back, because why would you want to say anything in PM when you could type it ingame?

**ShadowPanther**

Why do we need this whole big argument. Some people want the PM system. If you don't just disable it or don't pay attention to it.

**BM5k**

PMs++

**ShadowPanther**

And, if someone appears to be cheating, there should be a way to notify an admin to come and moderate the game, maybe end it in peace (forced peace).

**bkeefer** · This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 13/06/2008 05:40:53

Here is a way to cheat:

Player A, B, C, & D are in a game together.

Player A starts a new game and invites only player B and titles the game "lets ally in xyz game" and restricts chat to only game players.

Player B accepts and now has a defacto "PM" system with player A that allows for instant, secret weewar-provided communication. As I think Darkbee said, where there is a will, there is a way.

Also, since weewar is something of a social networking tool (many ppl invite their friends from other games or real life) many "secret alliances" probably already exist and use tools like ventrilo, messenger programs or plain old cell phones to facilitate victory.

This is why I play only 1v1 games now.

I would not mind having a PM system in the game or on this forum though so +1 from me.

**Darkbee** · This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 13/06/2008 12:41:40

BM5k wrote:PMs++

PMS?

I think some people from this thread have PMS! It seems like they would have it so you're locked in a small lead-lined room with no windows or doors for the duration of your Weewar session.

06/06/2008 14:56:46 Re:Personal message feature
Askyndr Heavy Trooper Offline	Darkbee wrote:If people are determined enough to undertake secret activities they will find a way. What do want 224bit encrypted secure satelite uplink? How secret does it have to be because everything you do on the Internet can be monitored, somebody somewhere knows your online activities. If I can get a message to somebody I'm playing a game with, external to that game, without you seeing it then wouldn't that be considered private? Do you sit there and monitor the community chat 24 hours a day? How does NOT having a private messaging system prevent me from talking to Weewar users outside of the Weewar site. One of the developers is meeting some people in New York city for God's sake, IN PERSON.... how do you know that they aren't going to conspire to ally against you future games? You're completely missing the point. I agree that having a PM system will make it easier but, if somebody wants to do it that badly they will find a way, regardless of what exists already. I don't see how not having a private messaging system avoids that problem. Oh and if you want a concrete example, my Weewar profile contains my website address. If you go to my website you can find an email to contact me. I'm not the only one, there are plenty of others here whom I could contact externally of Weewar if I so choose. ok, i give up, hands down, you won this discussion with brilliant arguments. of course something that would make secret alliances easy a 1-2-3 like a PM system is quite on the same as pidgeons, web sites and whatnot . if you think i'm paranoid, think again. give people tools and they use it. in weewar there's already cheating, and i for one don't want to offer them even the means for it. but however, as long as the system is not implented (what i hope for) i'll go and shiver of being conspired against by pidgeons carrying information between other users in my game ... This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 06/06/2008 14:57:09
06/06/2008 15:12:38 Re:Personal message feature
Darkbee Berserker Offline	NOT having a PM system is NOT going to stop cheating. You said yourself there is cheating already. I completely understand what you are saying, that if you make it easier to cheat then cheating will become more prevalent. I totally understand that, but you can't NOT give people things just because it might prevent bad things from happening (where MIGHT is the key word). I happen to disagree that cheating will increase and I think that is where we differ. The legal age for drinking in the United States is 21 years of age. Plenty of youth drink alcohol under the age of 21, what is the solution? Make drinking alcohol illegal? The US tried that already and it didn't work. Youth under the age of 21 drinking alcohol in the United States always happens and always will. Why don't we continue this conversation with my 31 year old male friend from Switzerland... oh wait, that would be you! If I spend 2 minutes to find a way to contact you externally from Weewar, then 100% of Weewar users can, IF they really were determined to do so. And I didn't get THAT from your Weewar profile! *No PM system required This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 06/06/2008 15:16:11*
06/06/2008 15:35:56 Re:Personal message feature
Askyndr Heavy Trooper Offline	Darkbee wrote:NOT having a PM system is NOT going to stop cheating. You said yourself there is cheating already. I completely understand what you are saying, that if you make it easier to cheat then cheating will become more prevalent. I totally understand that, but you can't NOT give people things just because it might prevent bad things from happening (where MIGHT is the key word). I happen to disagree that cheating will increase and I think that is where we differ. The legal age for drinking in the United States is 21 years of age. Plenty of youth drink alcohol under the age of 21, what is the solution? Make drinking alcohol illegal? The US tried that already and it didn't work. Youth under the age of 21 drinking alcohol in the United States always happens and always will. Why don't we continue this conversation with my 31 year old male friend from Switzerland... oh wait, that would be you! If I spend 2 minutes to find a way to contact you externally from Weewar, then 100% of Weewar users can, IF they really were determined to do so. And I didn't get THAT from your Weewar profile! **No PM system required well, first: you would prevent kids from drinking if there was no alcohol to get. sure, theoretically, with much money and some contacts they could import it, but it would prevent 99% of those kids to get to them. according to your logic we should sell needles and crack in every supermarket because people are bound to get them anyway. it's POSSIBLE, so why even bother resticting it or preventing the means to get it? however, i'd rest the case. i'm really tired of proving the obvious. i'll see what gets implemented, how it turns out and consider what i'll make out of it.
06/06/2008 23:56:00 Re:Personal message feature
Lucian Berserker Offline	Bael I get where you're coming from, but I guess this would be something the WWPA would look out for. I must disagree with you on the point because whilst the PM system would have room for abuse, it also has many more advantages which are much needed. If you're really all that worried about cheaters just use the paranoid wo/man's guidelines: - Play only against people you know, you've played against before or people you know are trustworthy from the community viewpoint. - If you get challenged by members with a very low score for the first time (particularly multiplayer games), play unrated games only or decline. - Always check the WWPA 'graylist'. I don't see much reason to worry about your score though. If I lose 20 points and find someone cheated for it, I'd slap them on the graylist and would be happy to pay that price to share that knowledge with everyone else. Scores really aren't that big of a deal.
07/06/2008 00:11:33 Re:Personal message feature
VTTruck Berserker Offline	weewar current private chat system: start a private game with private chat with the other player. dont take any turns. send the message and abandon before turn 3. no points lost. message delivered. those who want to abuse the system will. again - you can keep folks from cheating. just dont play with them and make sure others know about their behavior. I have 3 or 4 games going with the same group of friends. we all have each others email and have been forming private alliances and breaking them regularly. its part of how we're playing with each other. we also dont do that when other players are in the game. You cant stop the cheating, only avoid those you find doing it. Just like many of us have second (or more?) accounts. but we dont drone. doesnt make us cheaters. unless you count getting around the 4 game limit by having multiple personas cheating This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 07/06/2008 00:12:58
07/06/2008 04:08:51 Re:Personal message feature
NickDanger Raider Offline	Here's why I wouldn't implement private chat if I were the admins - one big unnecessary headache. It would get abused, and not just for cheating. You have have people harassing others via the system, hard up guys trying to pick up any player they think is female, etc. Then you'd have the victims complaining to the admins who have to start policing it, looking into complaints, sending warnings, blah, blah, blah. I'd leave it where if people want to contact each other they have to do it outside of WeeWar's jurisdiction. But that's just my opinion from the admin POV. Personally, I don't care one way or the other about it. If it was there I'd probably use it, but I don't miss not having it.
07/06/2008 06:04:16 Re:Personal message feature
Lucian Berserker Offline	The standard PM utility usually comes with a block feature which would negate that harassment aspect.
08/06/2008 16:20:10 Re:Personal message feature
Guido Trooper Offline	It seems that one of the arguments against a PM system is that people would "cheat" and form alliances. Is that considered cheating? What is the problem with that? If you form an alliance, you will have to break it in the end to win.
08/06/2008 20:46:18 Re:Personal message feature
Po Berserker Offline	You could always implement something that makes it so you can't send PM's to anyone that you're actually in a game with. That way, you can't form alliances and stuff behind someone's back, because why would you want to say anything in PM when you could type it ingame?
09/06/2008 02:20:46 Re:Personal message feature
ShadowPanther Tank Offline	Why do we need this whole big argument. Some people want the PM system. If you don't just disable it or don't pay attention to it.
11/06/2008 10:36:34 Re:Personal message feature
BM5k Raider Offline	PMs++
12/06/2008 21:00:47 Re:Personal message feature
ShadowPanther Tank Offline	And, if someone appears to be cheating, there should be a way to notify an admin to come and moderate the game, maybe end it in peace (forced peace).
13/06/2008 05:38:34 Re:Personal message feature
bkeefer Heavy Trooper Offline	Here is a way to cheat: Player A, B, C, & D are in a game together. Player A starts a new game and invites only player B and titles the game "lets ally in xyz game" and restricts chat to only game players. Player B accepts and now has a defacto "PM" system with player A that allows for instant, secret weewar-provided communication. As I think Darkbee said, where there is a will, there is a way. Also, since weewar is something of a social networking tool (many ppl invite their friends from other games or real life) many "secret alliances" probably already exist and use tools like ventrilo, messenger programs or plain old cell phones to facilitate victory. This is why I play only 1v1 games now. I would not mind having a PM system in the game or on this forum though so +1 from me. This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 13/06/2008 05:40:53
13/06/2008 12:41:35 Re:Personal message feature
Darkbee Berserker Offline	BM5k wrote:PMs++ PMS? I think some people from this thread have PMS! It seems like they would have it so you're locked in a small lead-lined room with no windows or doors for the duration of your Weewar session. This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 13/06/2008 12:41:40