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General_Death

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Do you think it is a generalization when I say that most people on weewar are educated, relatively young to middle age civilized individuals?

I truly have had some awesome conversations with some very intelligent and kind folks here. I'm glad that weewar attracts the best. Of course there are the original turkeys, but those are rare.

More importantly, I have a conclusion I've reached that I would like your input on. I think people who are educated, are almost always much better civilized and established than their uneducated counter-parts. I know this is not rocket science, but it's a reminder for you folks out there with kids (most of my friends on weewar) make sure you do not deny them the privilege of education.

: )

My two cents

Warmaker

Berserker

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I think this game is the type to attract folks who are smarter then the average bear, with very few exceptions. I like to equate Weewar with Othello. It's not too hard to pick up but the intricacies and the depth of the game is tremendous. People get intimidated by chess, but they'll play othello.

We're the same way. This isn't a massively deep strategy game, but it attracts people who like strategy games. The ones who get tired of it and leave are the bad eggs, mostly.

I think your demographic is right. We're mostly males, mostly 18 to 34 years old, mostly college educated. I certainly fit in that category, as do five guys on here I know in real life.

Warmaker

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And on a side note, I think that education and decency are mutually exclusive. Educated people can be more polite, but if you ever spend time in some very rural areas of the United States, you'll meet some of the most polite, respectful, sincere people in the world. Few, if any, go to college, and they're very salt of the earth types. But they're good inside.

And the same argument can be made in the business world. Some folks I work with are highly educated, with MBAs and such, and they're absolute scum. They lie, cheat, and steal and get away with it because they're very smart and charismatic.

I disagree with your second postulation.

CaptainCupCake

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Warmaker, I think I disagree with your first postulation, but agree with your second

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 13/09/2009 23:56:48

Warmaker

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CaptainCupcake wrote:Warmaker, I think I disagree with your first postulation, but agree with your second


Well, what is the basis of your disagreement?

CaptainCupCake

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I mainly like having the opportunity to use the word postulation...

But consider weewar, at least 1 v 1, very like chess (more like chess than othello), and with bases, income and an infinite number of boards, a more complex game. I think chess is easier to learn and play - it's just been around a whole lot longer. I'm not disputing the general thrust of your argument though

Sorry I was going to explain that in my last post, but fell asleep instead lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 14/09/2009 07:06:10

Warmaker

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Perhaps I used the wrong examples. A person can go online and find games that are super-involved, like Trevian or whatever it's called. But there's a huge learning curve to even pick up the game.

You can come on here, see a few units, move and shoot some people, and get excited about it. I didn't mean to equate Weewar to Othello. Weewar is much more similar to chess, without a doubt.

For complexity's sake, though, Weewar is easier then some other online games.

Somar96

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Chess is much easier for me than Weewar
And I'm too young for Warmaker's Generalisation (too young to have finished college too)

General_Death

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Warmaker wrote:And on a side note, I think that education and decency are mutually exclusive. Educated people can be more polite, but if you ever spend time in some very rural areas of the United States, you'll meet some of the most polite, respectful, sincere people in the world. Few, if any, go to college, and they're very salt of the earth types. But they're good inside.

And the same argument can be made in the business world. Some folks I work with are highly educated, with MBAs and such, and they're absolute scum. They lie, cheat, and steal and get away with it because they're very smart and charismatic.

I disagree with your second postulation.


That's a very fair argument Warmaker, and you know I always respect your opinion. The subject of this thread was a generalization though. I know some of the kindest people that haven't been within 50 meters of a school, they are farmers.. so you make a valid point. I was just making a general observation : )

General_Death

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P.S. don't compare weewar to chess.. Weewar is much more complex. In chess you move one piece at a time, big computers can program unbeatable chess programs.

I highly doubt IBM or HP will ever come up with a perfect weewar bot fighter. If they do, i'd love to take the prototype to town. There are way too many variables and permutations with weewar than chess. Let alone adding in deception and cunning strategies.. how the hell do you program deception?..

Yeah, just my point. Weewar is Chess to the nth degree

CaptainCupCake

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General_Death wrote:P.S. don't compare weewar to chess..
Yeah, just my point. Weewar is Chess to the nth degree


hehe. Well I was responding to warmaker's point that it was not as complex as chess and more like Othello. I would agree with the second part of the above, slightly contradictory snippet

For me, it is the essence magnified in some respects: yes a super complex version with more permutations (but yes, I agree with wm and would say it is still accessible and simple, one of the reasons why I think it is a work of great vision ) but VDMs thoughts on material and advantage, Stirlings exposition on best paths to victory are just at home in chess as weewar and the fundamental, basic strategies and concepts are mutual, aren't they? Perhaps I'm reading too much into it...

I'm sure some of the good players (not me) could write a book of openings for a particular map they knew (in fact Stirling writes his in chat, sorry mate ) and given one map and two players, and enough time and people playing it, there could be close to the depth of analysis we see for chess. I've always thought bots would only start being a threat to skillful players if written for a particular map.

But yeah that's only really 1 v 1 on a certain map. FFA no way. Every map no way (at least until computers take a major leap forward - but I guess computers which better mimic human cognitive and learning processes will eventually turn up).

Still one v one on the classic maps is what is generally considered to be the highest test of skill...?

...I guess that's just one take on it - they are other games weewar's like as well and a lot of games (of skill) share something of these common fundamental ideas...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 14/09/2009 23:02:46

General_Death

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CaptainCupcake wrote:I mainly like having the opportunity to use the word postulation...

But consider weewar, at least 1 v 1, very like chess (more like chess than othello), and with bases, income and an infinite number of boards, a more complex game. I think chess is easier to learn and play - it's just been around a whole lot longer. I'm not disputing the general thrust of your argument though

Sorry I was going to explain that in my last post, but fell asleep instead lol


I have to agree with CaptainCuppedNuts. lol.. I think Weewar is a total strategy game, much more complicated and intricate than chess. Think about it, chess only one unit moves per turn, here your whole army moves, you get a chance to build and control economics. The fact that chess is easily programmable and weewar bots are not shows the depth of the strategy involved. Think about it:

The permutations of moving your army and building many different units in combination would blow away any computer. Add in the subjective concepts of deception, goals, redirection, retreat, fake retreat, all of the many different tricks.

You get the point. I challenge IBM or any of the big IT programmers to produce a bot that can beat me.. lol.. or any of you for that matter. It's just too complicated

CaptainCupCake

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lol

Vidar

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I find a lot of you are trying too hard to explain how this is more complicated than chess. hehe. undoubtedly because the purpose of this thread has combined your ego with the reviews of weewar lol.

Deception and manipulation are crucial in chess. the basics of strategy in chess and that found in weewar are the same. manipulate your opponent through deception and force to gain ground on the battlefield and weaken his army while maintaining yours. You can build units all day but if your not maintaining what you already have and are gaining ground then your success rate falls to zero unless you have a teammate to save you.

I'm not saying this doesn't have additions to chess or that its harder to program AI here than it would be in chess, but just because it becomes harder to program doesn't mean its harder to play. Also the variety of maps don't make it harder or more complicated... it only makes the difficulty relative to the map. granted it is much more fun to evaluate new maps instead of an 8 by 8 board every time. I will say at least in chess there is an established point system. That is to say if a piece is attacked you lose all of it not just .5 or .7 of it. In weewar you generally are guessing as to the effect of your attack. some may argue that makes it more realistic but it doesn't make it as calculable and decisive as chess.

I would say, as someone who favors weewar to chess, that they are very similar in difficulty and complication. however the scale of weewar over chess can't be ignored.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 30/09/2009 15:19:22

drdrew

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This is getting a little boring. U know how people are talking to u and u aren't hearing anything. I feel the say same way bout this post now. I am reading but not really hearing myself. Just nod and smile

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 30/09/2009 16:45:36

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